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Old 12-16-2013, 01:26 PM   #26
blubyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holcombford View Post
There are plenty of classes out there for fox bodies to race. What do late model Vettes weigh from factory
Most of them are under 3200lbs.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:59 PM   #27
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holcombford is actually making some sense.holcombford is actually making some sense.
a 2010 vette weights 3350 curb weight.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:21 PM   #28
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See what yall think about these.





BODY & GLASS:
* Must have working headlights, tail lights, stock appearing interior, carpet, door panels, factory dash, 2 front seats, full stock floor pans, stock firewall. No bare metal or tinned interior.
* Lexan windows prohibited.
* Hood height limited to maximum 4" tall measured from the tallest part of the hood to base of the windshield (measured with a level sitting on the scoop).
* Fiberglass body panels limited to hood only except for OEM parts.
* Must measure within 1" of factory wheelbase, body may not be moved from stock location
* All vehicles must maintain a minimum ride height of at least 2.5" while at rest and at race weight. No part my hang down lower that 2.5" off the ground including exhaust.
* All cars must maintain factory front overhang and OEM dimensions front bumper.
* All vehicles minimum base weight with driver 3300 lbs

SUSPENSION:
* No wheelie bars.
* Bolt on stock suspension only.
* All suspension must bolt up in the factory OEM bolt holes with no relocation brackets. Cars equipped from the factory with transmission mounted torque arm may utilize an aftermarket front mount with bolt height as close to the OEM mount height as possible.
* Aftermarket rear anti-roll bars are the only non factory type or welded on rear suspension part permitted.
* Rear coil-overs not allowed unless is stk location
* All vehicles must retain the full factory frame rails. Notching for rear tire clearance is permitted. Notches must be on outside portion of frame only.

TIRES
* All entries must use DOT legal street worthy radial drive tires with a maximum diameter of 28".
* Mickey Thompson Pro and Hosier not permitted.
* Non-drag compound street tires not permitted on the drive axle due to safety concerns and to keep from tearing up the starting line rubber.

POWER ADDERS
* Single type power adder only.

NITROUS
* No multiple stages permitted.
Second kit wiring and feed lines must be fully removed.
If a car is found with a second stage hooked up on the track property, the racer will be disqualified from the event with no entry refund.
* Only one 10lb nitrous bottle allowed in car at a time and must be mounted in the trunk or hatch.
* Small block nitrous limited to a single nitrous solenoid with a maximum solenoid orifice size of .098” and a single true 4AN feed line. No nitrous line in the system may be larger than 4AN. Racers may be required to replace their line with one provided by tech if a non conventional 4an line is suspected.

FORCED INDUCTION
* No billet wheels allowed.
* Maximum flange size T4, small frame only
* Maximum turbo compressor wheel 70mm measured tip to tip. (no reducers allowed to achieve this size and no clipped wheels)
* All turbos must utilize the original turbo manufacturers wheels for the turbo being used. No swapping to different manufacturers, 2nd party or custom wheels.
* All turbos must be completely manufactured by the company that made the housing. No second party turbo builder units or modified units permitted for any reason.
* You may be required at any time to remove your turbo and/or your turbo cover to be checked.
*Maximum supercharger sizes S-trim, Si, P1SC, NOVI-1200 or roots/screw superchargers with a maximum displacement of 2.3L unless they were OEM on the car.
*Centrifugal blowers must be side slinger belt driven.
* Water meth injection allowed with maximum 50% methanol mix. May be required to empty and replace with tech provided “Boost Juice”. May not be combined with any other type intercooler.
* Any intercooler permitted as long as it is under the hood 100% including plumbing.
* No nitrous or any other spray bar system permitted to chill intercooler or any part of a forced induction car.

EXHAUST
* Mufflers required on all entries.
* Exhaust must route under the car, extend to within 12” of the rear axle and fully exit the outside perimeter of the car.

CYLINDER HEAD / ENGINE INDUCTION
* Small block, 6cyl or 4cyl only.bb only in production vehicle
* OEM passenger vehicle engine blocks only except for Ford modular at base weight.
* Aftermarket block engines except add 100lbs.
* Maximum engine cid 427sb, 514bb
* All pushrod engines must utilize a hydraulic or hydraulic roller lifter, solid flat tappet ok
* All cylinder heads must be non raised intake runner with stock valve angle. Must maintain the automobile OEM intake manifold bolt pattern. Ford TFS-R permitted. TFS LS permitted.
* Buick, Pontiac, Oldsmobile combos permitted if 440ci or less.
* Cast single 4150 type or non converted cast fuel injection type manifolds only.
* High rise or tunnel ram manifolds not permitted.
* All manifolds must be manufactured for the type cylinder head you are using.
* All cars must have a radiator.

FUEL
* Pump 93 octane gasoline is the only fuel permitted.
* Methanol only allowed in a 50/50 mix with water added weight
* e85 with weight

ELECTRONICS
* Any ignition or EFI permitted.
* Progressive nitrous controllers & programmable boost controllers allowed.
* All cars must have a working alternator in use.

WEIGHT PENALTIES AND DEDUCTIONS
* SB nitrous - 347ci or less 50lbs
* Aftermarket block engines except Ford modular add 100lbs.
* LS based engine combos with tfs heads 100lbs
* manual trans deduct 100lbs
*e85 add 100lbs
*lsx in foxbody add 100lbs



STAGING LANE AND ROUND PROCEDURE
* All vehicles must be driven to the staging lanes under their own power. May be towed back to the pits after the pass.
* When the official working the lanes gives the command, the first 2 pairs must fire their engines and idle until called to the water box. As the first 2 cars move up the next set of cars in the 3rd row must fire their engines then the 4th row as the 2nd pair pulls up, ect. The first 2 pairs of cars must always be running unless an official gives the OK to shut them off. Failure to start within 30 seconds of being told to fire or the beginning of the burnout by a car 2 rows ahead in line will disqualify the un-fired car.
* Failure to pull to the water box within 30 seconds of being motioned up by an official will result in disqualification.
* If a car dies before taking a beam, the driver has 30 seconds to re-fire before disqualification.
* If a car has any other mechanical issue after pulling to the water box and taking the first beam, the driver and crew member has 30seconds to get it corrected before being disqualified. Examples would be a stuck purge valve or loose part.
* Only 2 crew members allowed in the staging area past the burnout box with the car. This includes a team or family member filming or watching. After the first offense warning, the second time will disqualify the racer.
* Deep staging allowed at drivers own risk, no provisions made to hold the tree for the driver.
* If a driver double bulbs, the other driver does not have to pull up to the first beam. He can make the other driver back out and pre-stage again.



GENERAL PROCEDURE
* Once a racer takes the tree in qualifying they are counted in the ladder, will receive participation points and may not get an entree refund.
* Rules are subject to change and any combination that shows to have an definite advantage can be penalized to equalize the competition.
* Weather and time permitting, there will be 2 qualifying sessions. The quickest time will be the official qualifying time. Racers will be paired according to a pro-ladder. Driver with the quicker E.T. in the previous round during eliminations will have lane choice.
* If a race ends for any reason during a round of competition no points will be given for that unfinished round.
* Any minor intentional or unintentional rule infraction that does not cause a definite advantage will result in loss of any points and winnings achieved while in violation.
* Any intentional rule infraction done to gain advantage over the competition will result in disqualification a $3000 fine and suspension from all KOTS and CW races until the fine is paid in full.
* Treat the other driver the way you want to be treated.
* If you have a problem with another driver or team, take it up with an official (in an civil manner) not the other driver or team. If anyone starts an altercation with anyone else (right or wrong) they will be fined $500 and not be allowed in the competition area until the fine us paid (the instigator only not the entire team).

* KOTS has the right to inspect vehicles and support vehicles at anytime for rule violations. This includes tear downs and/or PNG engine measurements. Refusal to allow an inspection or tear down will be considered the same as a performance rule violation and will require the same penalty.

PROTESTS
If a racer believes another competitor in the same class is in violation of a rule, he or she may protest that racer for further inspection. The protesting racer must have a tech card for the current race. The racer making the claim must specify the violation to be checked for and put up a $200 protest bond plus any additional costs. Additional costs include but are not limited to damaged parts, gaskets, and reassembly fees by a professional shop of the car owners choice. Maximum shop fees will be set at the time of protest to not be excessive for the work to be done at the judgment of the KOTS president. If the racer is found guilty of that rule violation, the claimant will get his protest money back and will not be responsible for additional costs.

RAIN OUTS
In the event of inclimate weather , the decision to call a race is the decision of the hosting track.

I think this would work well
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:29 PM   #29
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maybe take away weight for s trim, p1sc and novi 1200

a 2.3 blower can make mid 600whp
70mm turbo should the same if limited to t series small frames
s trim would struggle to make mid 600's p1 deft isn't going to make it, not sure on the novi 1200 but its basically a si trim?
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonboy688 View Post
I think this would work well
Base weight is to low for the later model stuff.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:50 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonboy688 View Post
maybe take away weight for s trim, p1sc and novi 1200

a 2.3 blower can make mid 600whp
70mm turbo should the same if limited to t series small frames
s trim would struggle to make mid 600's p1 deft isn't going to make it, not sure on the novi 1200 but its basically a si trim?
Those rules could allow mod motors deep in the 6s:
A full weight convertible TVS 2.3 on a stock low compression Cobra has made 720+rwhp on E85 and runs consistent nines banging gears on the stock T56.

I was able to squeeze 718rwhp through a TH400 out of my old gen FRPP 2.3 whipple with a lot of supporting work and E85. I'm still running the smallest of the single blade throttle bodies available. At my boost level I would probably pick up 20rwhp or more by going to a dragon or FR single blade.

Many have proven coyote stangs run nines with good octane and spray.

I've seen a 67mm Supra make 650 on 110 octane. I'm sure E85 would be similar.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:03 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holcombford View Post
Base weight is to low for the later model stuff.

give the more weight more options for tires, or power adders

3800lbs larger blowers, slicks, twin turbo option

how many cars actually weight that much? new Camaro, maybe the gt500's some of the dodge stuff

94-04 mustangs 3200-3400lbs
98-02 Camaro and firebirds 3400lbs?
vettes 3200-3300lbs
challengers chargers 3600lbs
Camaro new model 3600-3800lbs?
05 up mustang 3400-3600lbs?


how many newer models do you think will show compared to the older stuff?
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:09 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonboy688 View Post
give the more weight more options for tires, or power adders

3800lbs larger blowers, slicks, twin turbo option

how many cars actually weight that much? new Camaro, maybe the gt500's some of the dodge stuff

94-04 mustangs 3200-3400lbs
98-02 Camaro and firebirds 3400lbs?
vettes 3200-3300lbs
challengers chargers 3600lbs
Camaro new model 3600-3800lbs?
05 up mustang 3400-3600lbs?


how many newer models do you think will show compared to the older stuff?
The GT500, CADDIES, GTO, CHALLENGERS, CAMARO'S AND NEW MUSTANGS ARE ALL ABOUT 3800 LBS BASED ON WHAT I FOUND ON THE COMPANY WEBSITES. THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE LIGHTER ARE THE VETTES AND SOME OF THE 94-04 STUFF IS STILL UP THERE PRETTY GOOD.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:11 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. E View Post
Those rules could allow mod motors deep in the 6s:
A full weight convertible TVS 2.3 on a stock low compression Cobra has made 720+rwhp on E85 and runs consistent nines banging gears on the stock T56.

I was able to squeeze 718rwhp through a TH400 out of my old gen FRPP 2.3 whipple with a lot of supporting work and E85. I'm still running the smallest of the single blade throttle bodies available. At my boost level I would probably pick up 20rwhp or more by going to a dragon or FR single blade.

Many have proven coyote stangs run nines with good octane and spray.

I've seen a 67mm Supra make 650 on 110 octane. I'm sure E85 would be similar.


and yes there is always someone that has run a number, but the question is, is that someone going to be running here at this race? and how many of them tvs 2.3 cars that are full weight and banging gears going 9's? last time I checked very few... if it was that easy then they would be everywhere
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holcombford View Post
The GT500, CADDIES, GTO, CHALLENGERS, CAMARO'S AND NEW MUSTANGS ARE ALL ABOUT 3800 LBS BASED ON WHAT I FOUND ON THE COMPANY WEBSITES. THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE LIGHTER ARE THE VETTES AND SOME OF THE 94-04 STUFF IS STILL UP THERE PRETTY GOOD.

yeah but how many of them models listed do you see coming out and racing? I am sure less then 10% are gto's caddys, and dodges... even on a test and tune night, you see 90% mustangs and camaro
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:56 PM   #36
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Is this class for late models only?
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:00 PM   #37
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The new stuff is still 3600-3800 lbs on the base weight on the new stuff. That doesn't include a driver so all the new stuff is at weight. Then add a supercharger, etc and you are over 4,000lbs. the base weight on the 05-09 stuff is 3500 lbs with a 5 speed so add a driver and you are over again on the base weight with our rules. The 03 cobra coupe base weight is 3660lbs.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:01 PM   #38
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Is this class for late models only?
no anything can run but that is what it is directed towards
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:09 PM   #39
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Quote:
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and yes there is always someone that has run a number, but the question is, is that someone going to be running here at this race? and how many of them tvs 2.3 cars that are full weight and banging gears going 9's? last time I checked very few... if it was that easy then they would be everywhere
I had my car in the list as well. It's gone 6.3 several times now with botched 60' & through the sleeper exhaust..

There are quite a few sub 7 second coyote cars with & without spray.

my point stands. If op wants a 7 second class, e85 won't work.

I agree though that the weight seems high.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:19 PM   #40
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The weight isn't that high unless the car has been gutted.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:19 PM   #41
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I think I am going to remove the e85 rule
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:28 PM   #42
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The weight isn't that high unless the car has been gutted.

I disagree. My car with me weighs 3900...that was with racestars on back but street wheels up front. That's full weight with a Moser 9", speakers, and amps (no sub in at the time). I was ~350 at the time that was weighed. So imagine someone 150 pounds, maybe with a less optioned car, skinnies, maybe racing seats, etc. We're talking 3600 maybe. 3800 pounds is pretty high even for a street car IMO - your car doesn't have to be gutted for weight reduction. I think something like 3500 would make a lot more sense persoballu.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:37 PM   #43
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I disagree. My car with me weighs 3900...that was with racestars on back but street wheels up front. That's full weight with a Moser 9", speakers, and amps (no sub in at the time). I was ~350 at the time that was weighed. So imagine someone 150 pounds, maybe with a less optioned car, skinnies, maybe racing seats, etc. We're talking 3600 maybe. 3800 pounds is pretty high even for a street car IMO - your car doesn't have to be gutted for weight reduction. I think something like 3500 would make a lot more sense persoballu.
that is too low imo
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:23 PM   #44
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that is too low imo
That's cool, it's your class - just giving my opinion. I think that limits it to only the latest cars honestly, because most of them are pigs. My car is on the real heavy side of 4th gens, and I wouldn't even fit the weight limits with all the add this add that with myself being 300 pounds. Just outs a lot of real true street cars just because of that weight from what I see.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:52 PM   #45
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C5 Z06 and C6 Z06 are 3140lbs,standard Vettes are like 3400lbs...GTO's and Camaros are right at 3900 without a driver ..Challenger's are 4100 ...not sure about the newer Mustangs
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:58 PM   #46
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that is too low imo

For a c5 corvette to weigh 3800lbs is going to take a 500+ lb driver. Is it not a street car? At this rate you wouldn't need any rules. Just say we want 3800lb and above cars that can drive cross country. I mean why even allow them to tow it back to the pits (per rules) , if its supposed to be a car that can drive across the country?
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:58 PM   #47
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It's really hard to make rules for this class because there are so many cobs out there. I want it to be geared toward late model stuff but the Vettes are light while everything else is heavy. At one point or another one combo or another will have to + or - weight. I think it is easier and more cost effective for others to add weight. Might would come down 100lbs or so. Without the E-85 I think the class will be kept In the mid 6 to 7 second range. May even delete water meth as it may exceed where we want to go with this class. Thanks for everyone's input. Again, because this isn't your standard race class it's gonna be a little tougher than normal to come up with a solid rule set at first. We may have to try it and make changes from there
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:27 PM   #48
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And the Bitching begins. Poor Blake.
BUTT.. A LS1 car has to be 3900 with stock catheral heads
and an LS3, LSA, or ported cathedral has to be 4050.
I can see CTSV's, 2010+ Camaros, some GTO's weighing that much, but plan to add weight of youre in a 4th gen. I have a stock suspension, full interior, turbo 4th gen at the shop with an iron block that comes in around 4000lbs with a 200lb driver.

Lets see what happend. My Buick would fit the rules, if I had a 62mm.

Let us guys @ RPM know if we can help.

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Old 12-16-2013, 09:25 PM   #49
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pro flo intake yes or no??
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:51 PM   #50
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And the Bitching begins. Poor Blake.
BUTT.. A LS1 car has to be 3900 with stock catheral heads
and an LS3, LSA, or ported cathedral has to be 4050.
I can see CTSV's, 2010+ Camaros, some GTO's weighing that much, but plan to add weight of youre in a 4th gen. I have a stock suspension, full interior, turbo 4th gen at the shop with an iron block that comes in around 4000lbs with a 200lb driver.

Lets see what happend. My Buick would fit the rules, if I had a 62mm.

Let us guys @ RPM know if we can help.



Jeff
Jeff, give me some input on the GM combos. Weights, etc. You can msg me.
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