PSA: Obama on taxes

[apriorius]

CLIFF NOTES:
-If you have money it is because you are "fortunate", not because you work hard
-If you're "fortunate" enough to have money, I want to take it from you at gunpoint to give to the less "fortunate".
-You didn't need the Bush tax cuts so let's repeal them.
-Any money you do manage to save and invest should be taxed at 15% instead of 28% to make things "fair".

2007 Democratic Primary Debate at Howard University, sponsored by PBS: on Tax Reform
Barack Obama: Reduce Bush tax cuts to pay for health care & other programs
Q: Do you agree that the rich aren't paying their fair share of taxes?
A: There's no doubt that the tax system has been skewed. And the Bush tax cuts--people didn't need them, and they weren't even asking for them, and that's why they need to be less, so that we can pay for universal health care and other initiatives.
But I think this goes to a broader question, and that is, are we willing to make the investments in genuine equal opportunity in this country? People aren't looking for charity. We talk about welfare and we talk about poverty, but what people really want is fairness. They want people paying their fair share of taxes. They want that money allocated fairly.
One of the distressing things about Katrina was the fact that we have not made systematic investments. And the only way we're going to make it is by making sure that those of us who are fortunate enough to have the money actually make a contribution.
SOURCE: http://www.issues2000.org/Archive/2007_Dems_Howard_U_Tax_Reform.htm

2008 Democratic primary debate in Philadelphia, April 16, 2008: on Tax Reform
Barack Obama: Raise capital gains tax for fairness, not for revenue
Q: You favor an increase in the capital gains tax, saying, "I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton, which was 28%." It's now 15%. That's almost a doubling if you went to 28%. Bill Clinton dropped the capital gains tax to 20%, then George Bush has taken it down to 15%. And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28%, the revenues went down.
A: What I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. The top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year--$29 billion for 50 individuals. Those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That's not fair.
Q: But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.
A: Well, that might happen or it might not. It depends on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going.
SOURCE: http://www.issues2000.org/Archive/2008_Dems_Philly_Tax_Reform.htm

[95Dakota]

I think we found something that flips around more than a fish out of water.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

See, at least these are arguments with facts and quotes. Good read.

[apriorius]

See, at least these are arguments with facts and quotes. Good read.

Thanks man. My favorite part is when he talks about "fairness". He wants people to be equal, but has not figured out a way to make sucky people suck less...probably b/c that is something the gov can't do. So the only other way to do it is to drag everyone else down to their level. Neat huh?

[HellTeeOne]

This stinks of Marxism.

D.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

Well, I will say that some people are a little hypocritical in their pointing of fingers on the area of intent and the base of the ideas. I've seen people get very pissed when someone makes the claim that George W is doing what he does to line his pockets and the pockets of his friends- and solely for that purpose. I see his detractors talking- and they actually think he's in the oval office with a top hat, monocle, and a cigar laughing about the poor. Well, he's not. I think he thinks he's doing the best job he can... I just think he's doing it wrong.

Well it's the same when you apply that to the other politicians. The same people who get pissed when the left thinks about G.W. as above paints the Dems with the same ink. That they're the angry communists handing out fliers and wearing an anarchy t-shirt. That they all get together and think about the best ways to dismantle the economy and turn the country into a hellhole. I mean seriously... everyone's well intended in this. Lets be fair in at least this regard.

Except maybe Mitt... god I hated that douche.

[Appel]

Atleast he is not trying to hide what he is trying to do, but after hearing this I'm not sure how people can still vote for him. Of course, people do hear what they want to hear.

[apriorius]

I mean seriously... everyone's well intended in this. Lets be fair in at least this regard.


Not so fast brutha :)

I agree to an extent, but it's fairly easy to point out instances where people have vested themselves in positions which, if successful, would without a doubt damage our country. Most Dems are fairly heavily invested in defeat in Iraq - if we win, all their yelling makes their previously stated positions wrong. They're only right if we lose. Also, a poor economy during an election is always bad for the incumbant party, and I feel fairly certain that the media has been trying to paint the economy in the worst light possible to assist the democrats. How else do you explain consumer confidence at all time lows while the economy has yet to post a negative quarter? Both instances are cases where our country is being hurt for the sake of political power.

To keep this from being purely partisan, I'd love to hear about some instances of Repubs doing the same. I'm sure they exist, I just can't think of any offhand right now. Point is that while I believe some politicans do their best for the country, I think others, perhaps a majority even, don't care about anything other than their own interests and won't hesitate to make life worse for you and I if they can line their pockets in the process.

[AllVenom]

Rich people vote someone into Presidency. Did he fail civics or something? Lets just piss off the one voter group you really need.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

I'm sure they exist, I just can't think of any offhand right now. Point is that while I believe some politicans do their best for the country, I think others, perhaps a majority even, don't care about anything other than their own interests and won't hesitate to make life worse for you and I if they can line their pockets in the process.

Sure thing. So long as the numbers are pretty split between red and blue.

And that's another reason I posted how I like the OP. None of this chicken little the sky is falling hysteria. Both sides are capable of getting ideas across without waiving their arms franticly like a loon.

[apriorius]

Sure thing. So long as the numbers are pretty split between red and blue.

And that's another reason I posted how I like the OP. None of this chicken little the sky is falling hysteria. Both sides are capable of getting ideas across without waiving their arms franticly like a loon.


Well, i'd like to hope that in general I back my shit up and don't fall into the aquatic fowl category.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

Well, i'd like to hope that in general I back my shit up and don't fall into the aquatic fowl category.


One of the best on the board.


Though the cliff notes might be a liiiitle overly simplistic, heh. Everyone gets a liiiitle bit of editorial room, right?

[HellTeeOne]

Well, for someone to effectively say that they want to raise taxes of some sort, even if it has been historically proven that the revenue from that particular tax goes down when the rate is increased sends up a huge red flag as far as I'm concerned. How can someone convince me that they have the good of the country in mind if they intend to effectively steal people's money with a purely wasteful measure?
Sounds to me like he'd like everyone but the parental nanny government to have less, because if the revenue from the capital gains tax goes down they'll cry about lost revenue and raise taxes somewhere else to regain it and then some. And so on.

I'm trying to stay on this particular subject here.

D.

[msydnor]

Sure thing. So long as the numbers are pretty split between red and blue.

And that's another reason I posted how I like the OP. None of this chicken little the sky is falling hysteria. Both sides are capable of getting ideas across without waiving their arms franticly like a loon.

Agreed...however, I'm not that sure on the whole tax cut issues. I did some research from a few economist of independent sources and according to them, both views have flaws. Even the so called experts have varying opinions. Obama claims not to overturn all bushes cuts (independent sources confirm this), just the ones on the lower and middle class (which is many of us). If I recall correctly those below $250K will see a decrease in taxes under his plan, and those making more may see increase, depending on how much over. Although his detractors state he wants to increase all taxes. When looking at my own pocket, this is not a bad thing for me. But I admit, I'm not as well schooled as I would like to be on economic. I'm hoping when I get our of summer school I can do more research. But, this is the kind of info I like to see, it prompts me to look deeper into the subject and give me a good starting point, vs, the sky is falling mentality. On universal health care, I don't like Obama's plan, but, I think something does need to be done about the cost of it, but admittedly, I have no idea what can be done. I does make me wonder however, if people like Obama and the clintons, and many others that support his plan make enough money that it will increase their own taxes, is it really that bad? Again, just speculating, I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.

[shane bigler]

Raising taxes to pay for something (remember the federal income tax is unconstitutional to begin with) to pay for universal health care (which is NOT a constitutional right) is wrong imo.

Also I never agreed with the whole "fairness" (in economics it's called equity) crap. Who decides what's fair? It is fair to work hard and allow the poor to stay poor for not working hard? Or is it fair to take from the rich and give to the poor? One thing is does is it takes the decision out of the hands of the individual and put it into the hands of a politician. A politician that knows nothing you or about how hard you worked. They also won't know if the poor person is poor because he/she made the wrong choices in life or they have just fallen on hard times.

Come on guys, if the left had it their way health care, energy, and everything else would be socialized. This is never how our country was intended to be run.

[msydnor]

Raising taxes to pay for something (remember the federal income tax is unconstitutional to begin with) to pay for universal health care (which is NOT a constitutional right) is wrong imo.

Also I never agreed with the whole "fairness" (in economics it's called equity) crap. Who decides what's fair? It is fair to work hard and allow the poor to stay poor for not working hard? Or is it fair to take from the rich and give to the poor? One thing is does is it takes the decision out of the hands of the individual and put it into the hands of a politician. A politician that knows nothing you or about how hard you worked. They also won't know if the poor person is poor because he/she made the wrong choices in life or they have just fallen on hard times.

Come on guys, if the left had it their way health care, energy, and everything else would be socialized. This is never how our country was intended to be run.

Flat tax!!! pay a percentage and call it day, while your'e at it, fire the IRS because you won't need as many of them to decipher all the tax laws. :)

[Jbone]

Fair Tax!!!!

[Jbone]

Fair Tax!
fire the IRS, keep your whole paycheck!

[HellTeeOne]

Universal Health care would become more of a trainwreck in this country than the public school system has. And that's saying something.

D.

[apriorius]

Mike, you're thinking of his plans viz. payroll taxes.

"Currently, incomes above $102,000 are exempt, with that threshold rising every year indexed to wage inflation. Mr. Obama would keep that limit in place, but then assess payroll taxes on incomes above $250,000, which his campaign claims would apply to only the richest 3% of Americans.
...
Would it help Social Security's financing problems? Mr. Obama has no idea. One of his senior economic advisers admitted to me that no one on the campaign has run any detailed models or performed any rigorous analysis.
...
But that tax bill could be higher still. While the payroll tax has always been calculated just on wages from labor, Mr. Obama hasn't decided yet what forms of income will be included in the $250,000 threshold. It's an open question whether it might include interest on savings and capital gains income.
...
Worst of all, even the small contribution to Social Security solvency that Mr. Obama's plan might make is entirely illusory. In fact, the more taxes his plan collects, the worse Social Security's long-term situation gets. That's because all plans based on collecting taxes and saving them in the Social Security Trust Fund for future benefit payments rely on the U.S. government being able to redeem the Treasury bonds that trust fund holds.
There's only one place that the money to redeem those bonds can come from: taxes. So ironically, any tax dollars collected today will have to be collected all over again – plus interest. You like the idea of paying more taxes today for Mr. Obama's Social Security plan? Then just wait 20 years or so, because you'll get to pay more taxes all over again.


SOURCE: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121435112024101581.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries

[apriorius]

Obama also voted NO on two different attempts to repeal the alternative minimum tax.

Also, have you guys considered what will happen to the market if he is successful in raising capital gains? The will be a giant dive as people pull out whatever they have invested for the short and mid term to avoid increasing rates.

[rapidroy]

Flat Tax Is The Way To Go. Straight Flat Tax Has No Loop Holes. Everyone Pays The Same Percentage Wise. Also You Cut The Cost Of Government By Virtually Eliminating The Irs.

[apriorius]

Raising taxes to pay for something (remember the federal income tax is unconstitutional to begin with) to pay for universal health care (which is NOT a constitutional right) is wrong imo.

Also I never agreed with the whole "fairness" (in economics it's called equity) crap. Who decides what's fair?

Come on guys, if the left had it their way health care, energy, and everything else would be socialized. This is never how our country was intended to be run.

Agreed. Reposting this from another forum - it's an excellent analysis:

Society benefits from individuals being secure in their rights to their property - in this case money earned through voluntary exchanges - because it encourages the free flow of capital. You'd trade a minor one time benefit for a principle that has allowed our economy to become the strongest in the world.


You can either have a dynamic and creative economy or you can have everyone on roughly the same footing. Not both.

Some level of taxes is justified by largely the same rationale: the need for a minimal level of stability.


For instance, a country needs a military. Otherwise, it's citizens won't be productive because they are always worried about being attacked, or they'll be dead which also makes them unproductive. Same with a police force and court system: if you don't have a way to protect citizens (physically and through dispute resolution) you'll end up in a survival of the fittest situation. I'm not an anarchist, and neither is any thinking person. But nothing I've seen leads me to believe that any government above the bare essentials is a good thing.

For those who don't agree, what gives you the right to impose your system on me? (You could live your life however you want under my system; the opposite cannot be said.)

[TSDuke]

http://boortz.com/

[single94]

word. then there wouldnt be anyone hiding money just to hit certain brackets.

a little over the top but still funny (dont agree 100%)

This girl who was towards the end of her first year in college went to her father and asked him, "Dad, here I am a freshman in college and I still don't know if I'm a Republican or a Democrat."

The father says, "How are your grades?"
She says, "Daddy, I'm pulling straight A's and carrying a 4.0 average."

He says, "How's your after school job?"
She says, "I love it, it gives me spending money."

He says, "How's your friend Matty doing?"
She says, "not very good. She's only got a 3.0 average in school."

He says, "Does she work after school?"
She says, "No, she just goes to party's and stuff."

He says, "Well, why don't you give her 5 of your grade points so that you will be a 3.5 and she will be a 3.5?"
She says, "No way! I study hard for those grades."

He says, "And why don't you give her half of your paycheck so she can enjoy doing things and shopping?"
She says, "No way! I work hard for my money and I'm not going to just give half of it away so that some lazy person, who doesn't care, can do the same things I do."

He says, "Welcome to the Republican Party."

Flat tax!!! pay a percentage and call it day, while your'e at it, fire the IRS because you won't need as many of them to decipher all the tax laws. :)

[The Funkmeister]

word. then there wouldnt be anyone hiding money just to hit certain brackets.

a little over the top but still funny (dont agree 100%)

This girl who was towards the end of her first year in college went to her father and asked him, "Dad, here I am a freshman in college and I still don't know if I'm a Republican or a Democrat."

The father says, "How are your grades?"
She says, "Daddy, I'm pulling straight A's and carrying a 4.0 average."

He says, "How's your after school job?"
She says, "I love it, it gives me spending money."

He says, "How's your friend Matty doing?"
She says, "not very good. She's only got a 3.0 average in school."

He says, "Does she work after school?"
She says, "No, she just goes to party's and stuff."

He says, "Well, why don't you give her 5 of your grade points so that you will be a 3.5 and she will be a 3.5?"
She says, "No way! I study hard for those grades."

He says, "And why don't you give her half of your paycheck so she can enjoy doing things and shopping?"
She says, "No way! I work hard for my money and I'm not going to just give half of it away so that some lazy person, who doesn't care, can do the same things I do."

He says, "Welcome to the Republican Party."
:lmao::lolup:

[msydnor]

Agreed. Reposting this from another forum - it's an excellent analysis:

Society benefits from individuals being secure in their rights to their property - in this case money earned through voluntary exchanges - because it encourages the free flow of capital. You'd trade a minor one time benefit for a principle that has allowed our economy to become the strongest in the world.


You can either have a dynamic and creative economy or you can have everyone on roughly the same footing. Not both.

Some level of taxes is justified by largely the same rationale: the need for a minimal level of stability.


For instance, a country needs a military. Otherwise, it's citizens won't be productive because they are always worried about being attacked, or they'll be dead which also makes them unproductive. Same with a police force and court system: if you don't have a way to protect citizens (physically and through dispute resolution) you'll end up in a survival of the fittest situation. I'm not an anarchist, and neither is any thinking person. But nothing I've seen leads me to believe that any government above the bare essentials is a good thing.

For those who don't agree, what gives you the right to impose your system on me? (You could live your life however you want under my system; the opposite cannot be said.)


Since you seem to be well versed on this subject, how about posting what's so great about the oppositions plan. Sometime soon when I get a few weeks break from class I will look it up myself, but you are posting great reference material for me to refer to later. Maybe I should add an economics class to my list for the fall.:think:

[apriorius]

Since you seem to be well versed on this subject, how about posting what's so great about the oppositions plan. Sometime soon when I get a few weeks break from class I will look it up myself, but you are posting great reference material for me to refer to later. Maybe I should add an economics class to my list for the fall.:think:

Here's a link to McCain's tax views:

http://www.issues2000.org/2008/John_McCain_Tax_Reform.htm

In a nutshell, he's all over the place. He does seem to want to extend the bush cuts and I have not read anything about him wanting to increase capital gains. He's still fairly progressive; thinks it's OK to tax the rich more.

His economis policies in general are also somewhat wishy washy. He seems to pay lip service to cutting spending. His voting record is strong on isolating SS from the general budget, which in and of itself would drastically cut gov spending.

Link: http://www.issues2000.org/2008/John_McCain_Budget_+_Economy.htm

Frankly neither of them is ideal, but McCain (to me) seems more confused...which I'll take any day over a dedicated redistribution of wealth plan. At least maybe he'll stumble on a good idea. Neither will do wonders for the economy on current policies. My vote will likely be one of damage control.

[Indecision]

I'm all about either straight tax or fair tax. Both of them are a fair way of distributing things.

[msydnor]

Here's a link to McCain's tax views:

http://www.issues2000.org/2008/John_McCain_Tax_Reform.htm

In a nutshell, he's all over the place. He does seem to want to extend the bush cuts and I have not read anything about him wanting to increase capital gains. He's still fairly progressive; thinks it's OK to tax the rich more.

His economis policies in general are also somewhat wishy washy. He seems to pay lip service to cutting spending. His voting record is strong on isolating SS from the general budget, which in and of itself would drastically cut gov spending.

Link: http://www.issues2000.org/2008/John_McCain_Budget_+_Economy.htm

Frankly neither of them is ideal, but McCain (to me) seems more confused...which I'll take any day over a dedicated redistribution of wealth plan. At least maybe he'll stumble on a good idea. Neither will do wonders for the economy on current policies. My vote will likely be one of damage control.

Confused is not good, no telling WTF you might end up with. I think I may call this issue a draw for now. Don't get me wrong, the idea of taking a rich persons money and giving it to some lazy bastard is against my basic general principle, but, considering I make less than 200K, I aint screaming to loud. Maybe it's time for that economic class.:)

[HellTeeOne]

Confused is not good, no telling WTF you might end up with. I think I may call this issue a draw for now. Don't get me wrong, the idea of taking a rich persons money and giving it to some lazy bastard is against my basic general principle, but, considering I make less than 200K, I aint screaming to loud. Maybe it's time for that economic class.:)

"I don't make $200k, so I'm not worried."

Where do you draw the line on this? When it starts to affect your income or investments directly in the form of a summons for more taxes? Or perhaps the small business owner that signs your paycheck or a loved one's who can't pay out his usual bonuses to his employees who actually need it because taxes are killing him? Or maybe even a large company who cuts payroll in response to less consumption of a product or service because people have less money to spend on it because it went to Uncle Sam?
The road to complete government control of everything is slow and creeping. The liberals know they can't take everthing at once, so they chip away at personal freedom and assets wherever they can in small increments; and they make sure they target those who "already have enough" or those who the press ignore.

D.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

The liberals know they can't take everthing at once, so they chip away at personal freedom and assets wherever they can in small increments;

You could at least mention all the controls that the 'conservatives' want to put on the people. I mean, the massive growth of the power and scope of the executive branch in the last 6 years, the disregard for privacy and civil liberties, as well as trying to make laws where you can put your junk or what kind of stuff you can do to your own body in your own home.

Face it- 'Liberals' and 'Conservatives' are squeezing different ends of the same tube of American-populace-cookie dough. The right only sees what the left is doing and the left only sees what the right is doing instead of minding their own fucking business. Only the libertarians have the balls to take a true hands-off stance.

[msydnor]

"I don't make $200k, so I'm not worried."

Where do you draw the line on this? When it starts to affect your income or investments directly in the form of a summons for more taxes? Or perhaps the small business owner that signs your paycheck or a loved one's who can't pay out his usual bonuses to his employees who actually need it because taxes are killing him? Or maybe even a large company who cuts payroll in response to less consumption of a product or service because people have less money to spend on it because it went to Uncle Sam?
The road to complete government control of everything is slow and creeping. The liberals know they can't take everthing at once, so they chip away at personal freedom and assets wherever they can in small increments; and they make sure they target those who "already have enough" or those who the press ignore.

D.

Didn't say I am not worried about it. Also, the tax breaks for the rich is not all it's cracked up to be either. If a large company is getting breaks, but, they are not selling products, they won't make more products or increase production if people are not buying because of the failed economy. Again, I'm not professing to know WTF I'm talking about, I've just heard a few points from both sides and trying to make sense of it. I will say however, if I can't see any real deliniation between to the two, I'll go for the one that will put more in my own pocket. Also, you guys act like if a demacrat is elected, what ever they do is permenant. If Obama did get elected and fucks it up, the rebublicans will get a shot at it in four years.

[shane bigler]

Face it- 'Liberals' and 'Conservatives' are squeezing different ends of the same tube of American-populace-cookie dough. The right only sees what the left is doing and the left only sees what the right is doing instead of minding their own fucking business. Only the libertarians have the balls to take a true hands-off stance.

The libertarian party (really the old republican party) scares people though, but it shouldn't. It's the "OMG don't take your hands off the wheel or we'll crash" mentality that's holding everyone back. Once people realize the they themselves are what keeps the our whole country going they'll feel empowered and not as scared to "let go." After all they aren't really letting anything go except the government. After seeing continued government failure it should get easier and easier.

[msydnor]

You could at least mention all the controls that the 'conservatives' want to put on the people. I mean, the massive growth of the power and scope of the executive branch in the last 6 years, the disregard for privacy and civil liberties, as well as trying to make laws where you can put your junk or what kind of stuff you can do to your own body in your own home.

Face it- 'Liberals' and 'Conservatives' are squeezing different ends of the same tube of American-populace-cookie dough. The right only sees what the left is doing and the left only sees what the right is doing instead of minding their own fucking business. Only the libertarians have the balls to take a true hands-off stance.

You and I agree on this point big time. Matter of fact, that's been my message in all these threads.

[shane bigler]

You and I agree on this point big time. Matter of fact, that's been my message in all these threads.
I think that a whole new party was created since 9/11. Big government republicans? :scratch:

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

I think that a whole new party was created since 9/11. Big government republicans?


It didn't create them. They were like that always. And then it happened and people were scared shitless. They had a blank check and cashed that motherfucker for all it was worth. I don't know what would have happened with today's congress. With any congress. But I'm not happy with what that one did.

[The Funkmeister]

All you bastards better quite taking my money and earn yours! :dammit: :lol::hello:

[JUGRNAUT]

"If you tax me at a higher rate than someone who makes less money than I do, you are punishing me for being a master of the universe."

-Stephen Colbert

[msydnor]

"If you tax me at a higher rate than someone who makes less money than I do, you are punishing me for being a master of the universe."

-Stephen Colbert

Considering you make less than 250K, I don't think you need to be overly concerned just yet.

[apriorius]

Well, I definitely could not call it a draw. While McCain's plans are more ambiguous, I think he at least respects the concept that increasing taxes supresses the flow of capital and hence restricts the economy. Not to say he wouldn't do it, but if anything he leans more toward protecting property rights.

Obama may know this too, but he doesn't seem to care - taxes for him are a means of wealth redistribution. Using the government as a proxy to steal from person A and give it to person B is morally wrong and has disasterous consequences for our national economy.

As an aside, you may find this interesting mike:

http://www.theneweditor.com/index.php?/archives/8036-You-Cant-Soak-the-Rich.html

[msydnor]

Well, I definitely could not call it a draw. While McCain's plans are more ambiguous, I think he at least respects the concept that increasing taxes supresses the flow of capital and hence restricts the economy. Not to say he wouldn't do it, but if anything he leans more toward protecting property rights.

Obama may know this too, but he doesn't seem to care - taxes for him are a means of wealth redistribution. Using the government as a proxy to steal from person A and give it to person B is morally wrong and has disasterous consequences for our national economy.

As an aside, you may find this interesting mike:

http://www.theneweditor.com/index.php?/archives/8036-You-Cant-Soak-the-Rich.html

I call it a draw because if you have no clue and you are running for pres, no telling what I may end up with. He needs to get a handle on this shit. The fact that he has no clue tells me he is not concerned with it one way or the other, i.e, I'm fine so fuck everyone else. Not to long ago I heard McCain say on TV that he was not to good on the domstic economic issues...WTF, that concerns me. That send me the message that he is foing fine so fuck the poe MF and the middle class. With that mentality we get what we get. With Obama, at least he is saying I recognize the middle class is struggling and I want to do something about it. Maybe his plan is flawed, but he recognizes shit need to change. That's why I call it a draw, one guy has a plan, don't know how good it may be, and the other doesn't give it much thought one way or the other. Most of us here are not rich, I know I'm not. I find it odd that poor and middle class folk so concerned about what the rich folk have or how they are taxed. None of this shit is permenant, maybe us poe folk should stick togther..I dunno

[JUGRNAUT]

Considering you make less than 250K, I don't think you need to be overly concerned just yet.


You have absolutely no idea how much money I make, or what im doing with my life to even remotely make a comment like that.

Regardless of your ignorant ass post, i can tell you my parents make substantially more than 250k, so It will affect me in any sort of inheritance that I get. Not that I really care, because I plan to be making plenty of my own money by the time I receive any inheritance from anyone. But it is something I could "worry about" If I was so inclined.

So next time you have a thought about what I "should" or "should not" be worried about, dont. I made the comment because I thought it was funny. Not to be over analyzed.

[apriorius]

I find it odd that poor and middle class folk so concerned about what the rich folk have or how they are taxed.

As soon as you're OK with the government going after a certain class of people, you're on a slippery slope. The AMT was aimed at the "rich" back in the day. Middle class was all for it..."Yeah, go SOAK 'em!". Now who's getting fucked? When you soak those who are most productive in society (i.e. those who earn the most money) you take away the incentive for taking risk to create wealth...and jobs. Finally, its MORALLY WRONG TO STEAL...if you vote for someone based on their promise to rob peter to pay paul (you may or may not be named paul), you're complicit.

It's just a bad idea overall. You just have to look past your own situation to realize it will affect you as well down the road. Or maybe not if you have a secure government job...little to no risk you will lose it. Would you sing the same tune if you were employed by a small businessperson like the majority of americans? Somehow I doubt it. Small business create the most jobs in this country, and people who work for small business are better at seeing the causal connection between taxation and their employment opportunities.

[msydnor]

You have absolutely no idea how much money I make, or what im doing with my life to even remotely make a comment like that.

Regardless of your ignorant ass post, i can tell you my parents make substantially more than 250k, so It will affect me in any sort of inheritance that I get. Not that I really care, because I plan to be making plenty of my own money by the time I receive any inheritance from anyone. But it is something I could "worry about" If I was so inclined.

So next time you have a thought about what I "should" or "should not" be worried about, dont. I made the comment because I thought it was funny. Not to be over analyzed.

Damn dude, chill the fuck out, I wasn't trying to insult you. If you make over $250K more power to you. I'm happy for you. They way you all ways talk about "ball'n, I made the assumption that if you were making that kind of moeny it would be a little more noticable. Note I used the word "YET" so I was not suggesting you never will. I never underestimate anyones ambition and you seem to have plenty of it....(ambition that is)

[JUGRNAUT]

Damn dude, chill the fuck out, I wasn't trying to insult you. If you make over $250K more power to you. I'm happy for you. They way you all ways talk about "ball'n, I made the assumption that if you were making that kind of moeny it would be a little more noticable. Note I used the word "YET" so I was not suggesting you never will. I never underestimate anyones ambition and you seem to have plenty of it....(ambition that is)

My bad, I thought you were trying to be a prick. I apologize.

[HellTeeOne]

You could at least mention all the controls that the 'conservatives' want to put on the people. I mean, the massive growth of the power and scope of the executive branch in the last 6 years, the disregard for privacy and civil liberties, as well as trying to make laws where you can put your junk or what kind of stuff you can do to your own body in your own home.

Face it- 'Liberals' and 'Conservatives' are squeezing different ends of the same tube of American-populace-cookie dough. The right only sees what the left is doing and the left only sees what the right is doing instead of minding their own fucking business. Only the libertarians have the balls to take a true hands-off stance.

I've actually been a Libertarian for several years now. I left the Republican party because I don't think they are true conservatives anymore. Notice in my previous post I said "liberals" and not "Democrats". It just so happens that the vast majority of liberals these days are Democrats.

D.

[msydnor]

I've actually been a Libertarian for several years now. I left the Republican party because I don't think they are true conservatives anymore. Notice in my previous post I said "liberals" and not "Democrats". It just so happens that the vast majority of liberals these days are Democrats.

D.

This I can appretiate. Someone that is willing to acknowledge this.

[brucelee]

Can't we all just agree that all politicians; Liberal, Conservative, Independent, Republican, Democrat, Communist, and otherwise, are just too far out of touch with reality and how every day life affects normal people.

Most of these guys are sons of politicians or other millionaires and have never had to do any actual work. The rest have always wanted to be politicians or millionaires and will step on whoever and do whatever it takes to get there. They are ruthless and care nothing about the "little" people. Contrary to what they say.

[shane bigler]

The political parties are shifting again. They alway have been. A classic liberal in the old days is currently called a libertarian. It seems that many real conservatives and real republicans have been distancing themselves from the current party of big government republicans. At this point I would like to call myself a Libertarian but there are things about the Libertarian party I don't agree with. I definitely don't like the fringe element of the Libertarian party (Anarchists, 9/11 truthers, etc)

What I do like is the adherence to the Constitution and Bill of Rights (which is basically adherence to Natural Law, which everyone should endear). I like small government and think that charity will always be better than taxation when it comes to helping people. I also like the "live and let be" mentality.

[msydnor]

The political parties are shifting again. They alway have been. A classic liberal in the old days is currently called a libertarian. It seems that many real conservatives and real republicans have been distancing themselves from the current party of big government republicans. At this point I would like to call myself a Libertarian but there are things about the Libertarian party I don't agree with. I definitely don't like the fringe element of the Libertarian party (Anarchists, 9/11 truthers, etc)

What I do like is the adherence to the Constitution and Bill of Rights (which is basically adherence to Natural Law, which everyone should endear). I like small government and think that charity will always be better than taxation when it comes to helping people. I also like the "live and let be" mentality.

Basically what we have today is the choice to pick a party that you can stomach, not necessarilly like

[Sleeper 362]

Fuck the rich. I ain't rich or will I ever see 250K plus a year. Neither will any of you or you wouldn't be posting on HPJ arguing about politics, so why do you give a fuck if someone who makes 300K a year has to pay an extra 5K a year? Honestly? I worked harder than any rich motherfucker on this planet has, hanging billboards for a measily 55K a year and ended up with a hurt back in the process with a company that won't recognize my injury even though I had a witness, so don't give me any bullshit about working hard for this or that. You may have worked hard at school or at building up your company, but for every person that worked hard that is making 250K+ there are 10000 people that are working just as hard if not harder than that person earning 25K or less. Shit if you make anything less than $13 and hour you need a fucking roomate to even have an apartment. So again boohoo for the rich they won't be able to buy that Mercedes this year or they may have to hire a less qualified nanny to raise their children for them, or better yet their wives might have to get a job part time to afford their coture bags that they so need. Yall act like it will be the end of the world if the rich in this country had to give back a percentage of what they take.

[apriorius]

Yall act like it will be the end of the world if the rich in this country had to give back a percentage of what they EARN.

Fixed that for ya.

The issue it not about work, it's about production. I'm certain you have worked harder than Bill Gates...however he has created far more wealth than you have. He has also created many, many jobs. If you fuck people like them over enough, they have no reason to keep doing what they do, which is CREATE wealth, and everybody (even you) ends up worse off.

Even is that weren't the case, who the hell are you to take something away from someone else? What's the difference between taxing a man and robbing him at gunpoint? Not much...not much at all, and the founding fathers understood that. They also said that democracy can only last until the poors of society discover they can vote themselves largesse out of the public coffers. Thanks for contributing to that.

[69boo307]

This deserves a repost, and pretty much sums it up.

"If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, and give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; And the sixteen being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they do now, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; But be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains around the necks of our fellow sufferers; And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second, that second for a third, and so on 'til the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering...and the forehorse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression." --Thomas Jefferson

[Sleeper 362]

Fixed that for ya.

The issue it not about work, it's about production. I'm certain you have worked harder than Bill Gates...however he has created far more wealth than you have. He has also created many, many jobs. If you fuck people like them over enough, they have no reason to keep doing what they do, which is CREATE wealth, and everybody (even you) ends up worse off.

Even is that weren't the case, who the hell are you to take something away from someone else? What's the difference between taxing a man and robbing him at gunpoint? Not much...not much at all, and the founding fathers understood that. They also said that democracy can only last until the poors of society discover they can vote themselves largesse out of the public coffers. Thanks for contributing to that.Bill gates wouldn't be shit without people on the ground busting their asses either. The door goes both ways. And do you honestly believe for one second that Bill Gates wouldn't keep making money no matter how much he is taxed? And if he didn't someone less greedy would. I would be all for helping the big coorporations if they would give back to their workers. If a company makes a billion dollars in a year they better not have one worker at minimum wage. We wouldn't need to invest if the companies would invest in their employees. I'm not talking profit sharing or any of that hogwash either, I am talking honest to goodness fair wages and benefits.

[69boo307]

Bill gates wouldn't be shit without people on the ground busting their asses either. The door goes both ways. And do you honestly believe for one second that Bill Gates wouldn't keep making money no matter how much he is taxed? And if he didn't someone less greedy would. I would be all for helping the big coorporations if they would give back to their workers. If a company makes a billion dollars in a year they better not have one worker at minimum wage. We wouldn't need to invest if the companies would invest in their employees. I'm not talking profit sharing or any of that hogwash either, I am talking honest to goodness fair wages and benefits.

I'm all for making more money, and I feel underpaid where I'm at now, but on the other side of the coin, the rich guy has no responsibility or obligation at all to give any of his money away. I figure if it gets to where I can't tolerate it, I'll quit. My CEO could give every employee here $100k cash and STILL be a billionaire. I don't expect that to happen though, nor do I think I'm entitled to his money.
That's just how capitalism works. Dont' like it, move to N. Korea, or China, or Cuba, where everyone is equally poor and the government keeps all your money for themselves. That, or do something to get rich yourself. :)

[Sleeper 362]

I'm all for making more money, and I feel underpaid where I'm at now, but on the other side of the coin, the rich guy has no responsibility or obligation at all to give any of his money away. I figure if it gets to where I can't tolerate it, I'll quit. My CEO could give every employee here $100k cash and STILL be a billionaire. I don't expect that to happen though, nor do I think I'm entitled to his money.
That's just how capitalism works. Dont' like it, move to N. Korea, or China, or Cuba, where everyone is equally poor and the government keeps all your money for themselves. That, or do something to get rich yourself. :)
Honestly if I struck it rich and I made Billions of dollars I would have enough money for myself and my family that they wouldn't have to worry for a generation or two and anything more would be put back into whatever means I used to get that money in the first place. If that means came from the efforts of my employees, they would get hooked up. One way of making sure you have a successful company is by having a large employee pool to choose from. The best way to manage that is by paying well and continually paying well. Also not every rich person is a business owner. How about these foreigners that come in with foreign medical degrees do a residency here then become doctors and they are still not paying taxes because they are on H1 Visas and stuff. They are making hundreds of thousands and not paying taxes, do you think that is cool? Or how about the people that inherit piles of old money like Paris Hilton who do nothing but waste their money on dumb shit like Coture suits for their dogs, or rap stars and Athletes that make in the millions to squander it on dog fighting rings and pounds of what ever drug they choose, are you worried about their loot getting taxed? All these groups would be held to the same standard as business owners or maybe they need a tax break too. What do you think? Honestly people who make the money that puts them in that bracket have not and are not working, the ones that have may not make it next year or they may make more. When you get to a certain point if you have any type of sense your money will make you money. If you were getting lets say 25K a month for a salary what is it going to hurt for you to give up a months pay for taxes. You are getting 25K a month, I pray you aren't living check to check.

[single94]

nm

[DSM Turbos]

How much do you actually know about H1 visas? I make most of my money from people on them and yes they pay taxes. Maybe certain types do not, but the majority pay tax just like you and me.

Inheritance is also heavily taxed. But why should you pay taxes on it when somebody already paid taxes on that money they make Your arguments seem to be very weak.

Sorry you have broke your back for work, and some have used there smarts. Like I always say work smarter not harder. No need to bitch about the people that have been smart enough to work there way up with good ideas and decisions.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

I think the only fear I have about a completely unregulated market is the return of the robber-baron style business owners. And the company town run by the company store where employees are like indentured servants.

[The Funkmeister]

How much do you actually know about H1 visas? I make most of my money from people on them and yes they pay taxes. Maybe certain types do not, but the majority pay tax just like you and me.

Inheritance is also heavily taxed. But why should you pay taxes on it when somebody already paid taxes on that money they make Your arguments seem to be very weak.

Sorry you have broke your back for work, and some have used there smarts. Like I always say work smarter not harder. No need to bitch about the people that have been smart enough to work there way up with good ideas and decisions.
Thank you.

Look guys...it's real simple. You want more money? Go to fucking school and earn it or start your own damn business! Nobody owes you shit.

[msydnor]

Thank you.

Look guys...it's real simple. You want more money? Go to fucking school and earn it or start your own damn business! Nobody owes you shit.

Sounds reasonable to me. I'm trying to do both.

[The Funkmeister]

Sounds reasonable to me. I'm trying to do both.I commend you Mike. Things will pay off, I promise.:) You, of all people, know life is what you make of it and how you orchestrate your future. Nobody gave me one single penny after high school. I worked and paid my way through college just like a street bum would have to do. Tenacity and determination got me where I am today.

[msydnor]

I commend you Mike. Things will pay off, I promise.:) You, of all people, know life is what you make of it and how you orchestrate your future. Nobody gave me one single penny after high school. I worked and paid my way through college just like a street bum would have to do. Tenacity and determination got me where I am today.

Actually my efforts have all ready paid off. I'm living quit comfy these days, the other shit is just gravy and something to do. My biggest struggle is to make my wife understand that because we make good money we don't have to spend it all as soon as it hits the fucking bank.

[Sleeper 362]

How much do you actually know about H1 visas? I make most of my money from people on them and yes they pay taxes. Maybe certain types do not, but the majority pay tax just like you and me.

Inheritance is also heavily taxed. But why should you pay taxes on it when somebody already paid taxes on that money they make Your arguments seem to be very weak.

Sorry you have broke your back for work, and some have used there smarts. Like I always say work smarter not harder. No need to bitch about the people that have been smart enough to work there way up with good ideas and decisions.Trust me I do not agree with inheritance tax, but I have no problem with a heavy tax on the interest that the inheritance brings. You also have to understand some people, myself included have never been presented with an opportunity to use their smarts that make due with the opportunities that they are presented with. I have a 3.7 GPA right now and I am still working toward getting a better degree than my first one, I am not getting financial aid nor am I getting any scholarship funds either. I will also admit that I do not know much about H1 Visas but I do know that some do not have to pay taxes. Oh and fuck Bill Gates too and all his money. Yeah he worked so hard developing software that he broke a sweat once. Then we ate up his product like no tomorrow, and how did he repay the American people? He put his customer service in India and gave all his money to Africa. He has done a lot for the UNCF, but he hasn't invested much of his money back into America. Most of his Chraitable contributions equate to nothing more than Tax breaks. What if he took his charity money and gave it to his employees, paid them all accordingly to the role they play with his company, That would boost the economy so much more than giving 25 or whatever billion to Africa. Look at Oprah, yeah I have made billions of dollars off of middle class American women how can I repay this country for being so good to me? Lets build an all girls school in Africa, FUCK AFRICA. The fact of the matter is the companies that are making millions of American dollars are not putting it back into the economy and that is what makes Capitalism works. Right now these guys are hording their stuff or just using it to make more money. Again bottom dollar economics are what is failing us. If they invested in their people this would be a better place. If they don't like it they can leave this country, other less people will gladly fill their space with a smile on their face. I don't want a 25,000 squarefoot house, and I don't need a yacht to make me happy. More people would be happy just getting their bills paid.

[The Funkmeister]

Actually my efforts have all ready paid off. I'm living quit comfy these days, the other shit is just gravy and something to do. My biggest struggle is to make my wife understand that because we make good money we don't have to spend it all as soon as it hits the fucking bank.
:lolup: I hear ya!

[Sleeper 362]

I commend you Mike. Things will pay off, I promise.:) You, of all people, know life is what you make of it and how you orchestrate your future. Nobody gave me one single penny after high school. I worked and paid my way through college just like a street bum would have to do. Tenacity and determination got me where I am today.
My road has not dead ended. I will never be done with working or improving myself. I will always acheive and coming from my background I have come a long way but I still have a long way to go. I don't expect anyone to give me shit. Have never taken one penny of financial aid or anything of that sort. I just think its funny how everyone is worried about a small percentage of money coming out of the pockets of the people who need it the least is going to end the world. In all reality the middle class is extended as far as they need to be. According to most of yall we are already supporting all of the poor as it is so nothing will change from where it is now, except for the fact that the middle class won't have to carry as much as they are now.

Honestly though I really beleive that most of yall could really care less if the Rich paid more taxes. I just think you are reaching for things to disqualify a candidate that is trying to put more money in YOUR pockets. Whatever your reasons are for this, I don't know, but again I find it that yall stretching for anything. Funny thing is most Doctors or upperclass people (which happen to mainly be doctors) that I know are voting for Obama. I guess their education helps them see the fact that the middle class is the true life blood of this country. Look the current policy is for the upperclass and look where that has landed us, look at the state we are in now.

[69boo307]

Here's another way to look at it... the people funding the government are the people influencing what the government does, money controls everything... If the wealthy pay more and the poor pay less, well it's self explanatory who is extending their influence over the government.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

So what you're saying is that dollar counts more at the ballot box than the voice? Is this what we're comfortable with? Is this the accepted standard?

[69boo307]

Honestly though I really beleive that most of yall could really care less if the Rich paid more taxes. I just think you are reaching for things to disqualify a candidate that is trying to put more money in YOUR pockets.

Is that so? Explain how raising my taxes going to put more money in my pockets? I'm not rich, but I don't qualify as 'poor' either. Unless I quit my job and go on welfare, I won't see any benefit. The only people benefiting are those who are already mooching off the government.

If the government needs more money, we have too much government.

[69boo307]

So what you're saying is that dollar counts more at the ballot box than the voice? Is this what we're comfortable with? Is this the accepted standard?

That's how it works, like it or not. Obama is looking out for one person, himself. Like all politicians he says what he thinks will get him elected. He doesn't give a fuck about you and me any more than any other politician. He just puts on a good show, that's all.

[msydnor]

Is that so? Explain how raising my taxes going to put more money in my pockets? I'm not rich, but I don't qualify as 'poor' either. Unless I quit my job and go on welfare, I won't see any benefit. The only people benefiting are those who are already mooching off the government.

If the government needs more money, we have too much government.

I think his point is, the taxes Obama proposes is not on the middle class, actually he claims tax breaks for the middle class, and less tax breaks for the upper class. Which in theory means more money in you pocket, unless of course you make more than $250K.

[msydnor]

That's how it works, like it or not. Obama is looking out for one person, himself. Like all politicians he says what he thinks will get him elected. He doesn't give a fuck about you and me any more than any other politician. He just puts on a good show, that's all.

And how is McCain different? he admitedly does not know much about economic issues, and up until a few weeks ago apparently had not given it much thought. That says to many that he figures, hey, I'm good, whats the problem, fuck everybody else. There are a lot of issue a president has to work on, considering the current economic status of the country, a guy running for president should have that shit in the front of his mind. It should be a top priority. we have a huge deficit right now, somebody needs to fix it.

[Sleeper 362]

I think his point is, the taxes Obama proposes is not on the middle class, actually he claims tax breaks for the middle class, and less tax breaks for the upper class. Which in theory means more money in you pocket, unless of course you make more than $250K.BOOM exactly!!!! The governments definition of upper class is someone with an income of 250K A YEAR and upwards. I SERIOUSLY doubt any of yall no matter how well you are doing fall into that category. Sorry you people making 150K a year are middle class just like me no matter how uppity you think you are.:) I don't know why yall attack him. He is the closest thing to a normal person we have ever had in this position. He was raised by a single mother in middle America then Hawaii. His grandparents that raised him were racist towards blacks just like a lot of yall's were/are, and he made himself something out of coming from a nothing background, just like a lot of yall are saying. He got his head in the books went to Harvard, and is now in the position to become the president. He wasn't born into a wealthy family and he wasn't put into the position he is in because he was black or the fact that he was rich, he did it on his own merit, with good decisions and strong values. He is proof that you can come from humble beginnings and be somebody, and let me tell you a secret, people like that tend to hate freeloaders worse than yall do. Just because a lot of his followers are what you dispise shouldn't cloud your veiw of who he actually is. This is the first time in my memory that a political candidate has actually acknowledged the middle class as being the backbone of this country. This is good news because if things don't change as in releif for the middle class we will head straight into a depression just like the 30s. Don't forget that the upper class of the 20s got really really rich right before the 30s. I see the same patterns happening now.

[The Funkmeister]

My road has not dead ended. I will never be done with working or improving myself. I will always acheive and coming from my background I have come a long way but I still have a long way to go. I don't expect anyone to give me shit. Have never taken one penny of financial aid or anything of that sort. I just think its funny how everyone is worried about a small percentage of money coming out of the pockets of the people who need it the least is going to end the world. In all reality the middle class is extended as far as they need to be. According to most of yall we are already supporting all of the poor as it is so nothing will change from where it is now, except for the fact that the middle class won't have to carry as much as they are now.

Honestly though I really beleive that most of yall could really care less if the Rich paid more taxes. I just think you are reaching for things to disqualify a candidate that is trying to put more money in YOUR pockets. Whatever your reasons are for this, I don't know, but again I find it that yall stretching for anything. Funny thing is most Doctors or upperclass people (which happen to mainly be doctors) that I know are voting for Obama. I guess their education helps them see the fact that the middle class is the true life blood of this country. Look the current policy is for the upperclass and look where that has landed us, look at the state we are in now.I told you want I believe and will stand by it regardless of who is running for president. BTW- Just because you have money or you're a physician doesn't mean you have common sense. I work with highly degreed people in the pharmaceutical industry who believe in socialized medicine and healthcare. They all live in their million dollar homes and bitch about being underpaid and needing more stock options.:lmao: :fail:



That's like nuns running a whore house. Fucking idiots...every damn one of them.


You're right..:D...I don't make 250,000 a year but I still don't believe the rich owe me a damn thing.

[Sleeper 362]

I told you want I believe and will stand by it regardless of who is running for president. BTW- Just because you have money or you're a physician doesn't mean you have common sense. I work with highly degreed people in the pharmaceutical industry who believe in socialized medicine and healthcare. They all live in their million dollar homes and bitch about being underpaid and needing more stock options.:lmao: :fail:

That's like nuns running a whore house. Just because you have status/education doesn't mean you have a lick of fucking sense.

Fucking idiots...every damn one of them.
Although I cannot argue your point because they should have common sense courses in college, my point in pointing out their education level is that people with higher education do tend to see things with a little less bias than people with no education. They won't let a persons name get in the way of that persons message.

Oh and Funky I know you well enough that your beleifs are what you beleive. I think others just have certain "hangups" and they are letting that dictate their political decisions more than anything

[The Funkmeister]

Oh and Funky I know you well enough that your beleifs are what you beleive. I think others just have certain "hangups" and they are letting that dictate their political decisions more than anything
I agree. Let me know if you're in the area. We should go for some drinks.:D:drunk: You can even invite Mike. haha! :D

[msydnor]

I agree. Let me know if you're in the area. We should go for some drinks.:D:drunk: You can even invite Mike. haha! :D

You're buying you rich mutherfucker. Until Obama gets in and gives me my 40 acres and a mule I'm strapped for cash. :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

[Sleeper 362]

You're buying you rich mutherfucker. Until Obama gets in and gives me my 40 acres and a mule I'm strapped for cash. :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::l mao:I think the land in Texas my dad has actually came from that program. Sad thing is they found oil (natural gas but they beleive oil is underneath it) on it just recently. Now ain't that a motherfucker!!!!

[apriorius]

Obama wants to let the Bush tax cuts expire. That's going to lower your taxes? Um, no:

The Department of the Treasury recently released a paper studying the impact of letting tax relief expire: “A four-person, one-earner family with wage income each year of $40,000 in 2007 dollars would see a tax increase of $2,345; a four-person, one-earner family with wage income each year of $80,000 in 2007 dollars would see a tax increase of $2,000; a three-person, one-earner family with wage income each year of $40,000 in 2007 dollars would see a tax increase of $1,655; and a head of household with two children and wage income each year of $30,000 in 2007 dollars would see a tax increase of $1,615.”

More than 116 million Americans would see their taxes go up. And small businesses that pay their taxes based on individual rates (which is most of them) could see their effective rate rise to more than 44 percent.

SOURCE: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11259.html

He also wants to increase capital gains which WILL affect you if you have any retirement savings. He also wants to raise taxes on gas, energy, and corporations. If he raises taxes on corporations, YOU will pay the increase as corps will just price it into their products.

Jesus, sometimes I really do think some of you people have your heads up your asses. And I mean that in the nicest possible way :)

[apriorius]

Sleeper - a big corporation that makes billions of dollars pays out the profits in dividends generally speaking. Do you have a 401K? IRA? Any retirement savings at all? If so, you're very likely getting a slice of that action.

But even if they didn't, that's their perogative. THEY earned the money. YOU did not. You have no right to their money. You can blabber all you want about how you would give it all away, but newsflash, you'll never ever have it because you don't respect the work it takes to earn it, and thus cannot achieve it yourself.

Why don't you just admit to yourself that you're a socialist, a looter, and someone who is fine with taking things from people that you can't earn yourself. You feel that someone should live their life on your behalf; that their strength is beholden to your weakness. You think your weakness entitles you to the product of their ability. You don't have to admit this stuff to me; you already admitted it in your writing. But if you thought through the full implications of your beliefs you'd find out that you aren't the person you think you are. No...much less a person I'm afraid.

[msydnor]

No offense man, but politico is not a reputable source to me, it has an extreeeemmmmmlllllly right slant. However, I will research this info to get to what's really the deal. I prefer more neutral sources. I look at other sites slanted to the left that contridict politico

[Sleeper 362]

Obama wants to let the Bush tax cuts expire. That's going to lower your taxes? Um, no:

The Department of the Treasury recently released a paper studying the impact of letting tax relief expire: “A four-person, one-earner family with wage income each year of $40,000 in 2007 dollars would see a tax increase of $2,345; a four-person, one-earner family with wage income each year of $80,000 in 2007 dollars would see a tax increase of $2,000; a three-person, one-earner family with wage income each year of $40,000 in 2007 dollars would see a tax increase of $1,655; and a head of household with two children and wage income each year of $30,000 in 2007 dollars would see a tax increase of $1,615.”

More than 116 million Americans would see their taxes go up. And small businesses that pay their taxes based on individual rates (which is most of them) could see their effective rate rise to more than 44 percent.

SOURCE: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11259.html

He also wants to increase capital gains which WILL affect you if you have any retirement savings. He also wants to raise taxes on gas, energy, and corporations. If he raises taxes on corporations, YOU will pay the increase as corps will just price it into their products.

Jesus, sometimes I really do think some of you people have your heads up your asses. And I mean that in the nicest possible way :)Even if I beleived all of that, what is leaving the tax cuts for the wealthy in place going to do for us? Lower our taxes? Dude give it up, until the policy is actually changed we can speculate all day what it is going to do, but we won't know for sure. Plus those numbers are only taking into account part of a proposed plan. If a motherfucker says point blank "I want to give tax breaks to the middle class and let the tax breaks for the wealthy fade away." if they hold true to their word, guess whats going to happen, the middle class is going to get tax breaks, and the wealthy will not. So please stop putting up proposed speculation about what is going to happen. No one will know until it happens so all the number crunching means nothing until the day the policy is enacted. Maybe just Maybe business owners are not the only people in the upper class and maybe just maybe they will do the right/moral thing and NOT try to pass on their miniscule losses to us. Oh and small business owners don't all make above 250K in fact I will venture to say most don't make that much, so they are in no real danger of paying any more than we will. One thing I will say is for certain, the current policy is failing everyone, so a change must be made. McCain has no clue and he hasn't said he will do anything except exempt the wealthy. Don't let failed promises of past republicans and democrats dictate your decisions now. Yall are always talking about faith in our religious conversations, how about a little faith in our future leaders.

I will not vote for someone who is going to keep the current economic policies, because they have failed.

[Sleeper 362]

Here you go. What if he really does beleive this.

"I'm not just somebody who is talking about government as the solution to everything. I also believe in personal responsibility. I also believe in faith."

That is coming from someone who has made it in life on their own efforts. I think I can beleive that he beleives that. In fact dems are saying he is too right-winged. I have been saying since day one we don't need left or right we need someone in the middle. Both parties have their faults and plusses and if we can get someone to do whats right for us and not focused on their parties political agenda it would help us come together as Americans not conservatives or liberals. Ask me I am neither. Again this man is at least saying he is wanting to help YOU out and yall are still fighting it tooth and fist. The man who says it, might actually do it but the one who says they won't damn sure won't. I would rather have a chance at something than have no chance at all.

[apriorius]

No offense man, but politico is not a reputable source to me, it has an extreeeemmmmmlllllly right slant. However, I will research this info to get to what's really the deal. I prefer more neutral sources. I look at other sites slanted to the left that contridict politico


Hmm, didn't know that about the politico...don't go there often. If you find anything more neutral, I'd be interested to see it, however the outcome relates to the argument.

[apriorius]

Again this man is at least saying he is wanting to help YOU out and yall are still fighting it tooth and fist.

The man isn't going to help ME out whatsoever. I carry my own weight, and won't accept his nor anyone else's stolen goods, just as I wouldn't accept a bloody wallet fresh from the victim of a mugger if he tried to hand it to me.

I'm no fucking looter, and frankly despise with all my heart those who are. Take your handout to someone with a no pride who's willing to accept it.

[msydnor]

Hmm, didn't know that about the politico...don't go there often. If you find anything more neutral, I'd be interested to see it, however the outcome relates to the argument.

This site seems to evaluate both sides, you can find aurguments for and against both.

A quick google search netted me several sites that put the two candidates plans side by side. I even found a side by side chart. Some favor McCain, some favor Obama, some were very nuetral (just report the info with no assessment). Most pretty much agree that the intent of Obamas is to close cooperate lopholes and give more relief to lower and middle class (below $250K) but there are varying opinions on how well it would actually do this. Most indicate that there are issues with both. I have found that when doing research online you really have to use multiple sources to get a clear picture. I could easily find sites that claim Obamas plan is the bset thing since sliced bread, same for McCain. I try to focus more on the ones that are from more nuetral source devoid of rhetoric. Honestly, I find it difficult to make a good analysis when expert can't even agree.

[69boo307]

And how is McCain different? he admitedly does not know much about economic issues, and up until a few weeks ago apparently had not given it much thought. That says to many that he figures, hey, I'm good, whats the problem, fuck everybody else. There are a lot of issue a president has to work on, considering the current economic status of the country, a guy running for president should have that shit in the front of his mind. It should be a top priority. we have a huge deficit right now, somebody needs to fix it.

He's not different, they're both idiots.

[HellTeeOne]

Oh and Funky I know you well enough that your beleifs are what you beleive. I think others just have certain "hangups" and they are letting that dictate their political decisions more than anything

Hangups?

The man wants and intends to take my second amendment rights (I absolutely will not vote for someone who doesn't have a solid 2A record) and to get the government involved in my health care. Wonder if the government could do any better job with health care than they've done with social security or public schools:lmao:

I could go on for days on just those two subjects, not to mention the increased taxes and other socialized welfare shit he and his party hold so dear these days.
How about this: Socialized welfare programs, which is what a lot of his intentions amount to, are almost always detrimental on average, no matter who is paying for them, rich, poor, or middle-class. Our tax money should NOT be spent on them.
I'll go so far to say that it all amounts to little more than expansion of Government hedgemony and federal power in everyone's everyday life.

D.

[apriorius]

Honestly, I find it difficult to make a good analysis when expert can't even agree.

I ran out of new books the other day so I hit my shelves. Currently re-reading a very interesting book first published in 1946 called "Economics in one lesson". As I mentioned, it was written 62 years ago, yet he describes the housing bubble with great precision:

"The case against government-guaranteed loans and mortgages to private businesses and persons is almost as strong as, though less obvious than, the case against direct government loans and mortgages. The advocates of government-guaranteed mortgages also forget that what is being lent is ultimately real capital, which is limited in supply, and that they are helping identified B at the expense of some unidentified A. Government-guaranteed home mortgages, especially when a negligible down payment or no down payment whatever is required, inevitably mean more bad loans than otherwise. They force the general taxpayer to subsidize the bad risks and to defray the losses. They encourage people to “buy” houses that they cannot really afford. They tend eventually to bring about an oversupply of houses as compared with other things. They temporarily overstimulate building, raise the cost of building for everybody (including the buyers of the homes with the guaranteed mortgages), and may mislead the building industry into an eventually costly overexpansion. In brief in the long run they do not increase overall national production but encourage malinvestment."

The book has some very good background information on economic policies and their subsequent consequences. I think reading it would help you determine BS policies when you see them. Best part is, it's available online in its entirety!

http://jim.com/econ/contents.html

[Sleeper 362]

Jesse Jackson thinks hes being too right. If Jesse Jackson doesn't like him, He gets my fucking vote.

When will yall not realize he isn't talking about taking money from anyone to give to the poor. He is talking about getting the same amount of taxes from America but looking to the upperclass to pay more of their share to releive some of the middle class of their tax burdens. Yall with your slave mentality are just reaching for something. "Better keeps zsa masser happy or he gonna whip us good for tuchin his munnie" That is what yall sound like. Look I have owed about 900 a year for the past few years because I didn't have them take extra holding out of my checks and I won't spit out a bunch of children. I am sure anyone in my position can tell you it sucks being middle class during tax season. And in all honesty the amount of releif for us would be a much larger percentage than the percentage the rich would be missing. It is simple economics $2500 to someone making 30K a year is 8.3% of their income that same $2500 to someone who makes 250K is 1% so lets see who could use that $2500 more. Who will miss it more? You also have to take into account that in all honesty the middle class buys more shit as a whole than the upper class and that extra we have would help our economy more than it would help the rich to have that. To someone who makes 30K a year that 2500 could be a new vehicle for themselves or for their kid. To the upperclass it might be a few nights of dinner or their lawncare for their illeagal alien landscaper that is going to send it to mexico, or maybe a birthday party for their three year old.

[HellTeeOne]

You really think you're going to end up paying less taxes if Obama is elected?

Really? No, seriously. Really?

D.

[TSDuke]

I understand this thread is about taxes, but one needs to look at the many other issues to fully understand this man.

Everything he says now can't be trusted. The man is a master at the Alinsky model of agitation.

"The agitator's job, according to Alinsky, is first to bring folks to the "realization" that they are indeed miserable, that their misery is the fault of unresponsive governments or greedy corporations, then help them to bond together to demand what they deserve, and to make such an almighty stink that the dastardly governments and corporations will see imminent "self-interest" in granting whatever it is that will cause the harassment to cease."

It's a marketing machine at this point to get him elected. One just has to look at his voting record to see how far LEFT he really is.

Not to mention the company he keeps, i.e., Rev. Wright, Williams Aryes... etc

[black_z]

I've said it once and I'll say it again... if voting really changed things, it would be illegal! :)

[msydnor]

I understand this thread is about taxes, but one needs to look at the many other issues to fully understand this man.

Everything he says now can't be trusted. The man is a master at the Alinsky model of agitation.

And how is it this is different from any other polition to include McCain who claims to be conservative, who claims to be Baptist all of a sudden because it fit better in his political make up?




Not to mention the company he keeps, i.e., Rev. Wright, Williams Aryes... etc

The boogyman is coming to get me!!! :lmao: you guys kill me...love the sig,

[TSDuke]

And how is it this is different from any other polition to include McCain who claims to be conservative, who claims to be Baptist all of a sudden because it fit better in his political make up?
The boogyman is coming to get me!!! :lmao: you guys kill me...love the sig,

None, that's politics, but this thread is about Obama, not McCain. I'm not a McCain supporter either.

If you don't think the people a person associates with helps mold they're beliefs ask yourself a few questions. How would you feel if a member of your family served on a board & was social with a known, unrepentant terrorist? Would you stay a member of a church that is racist & anti-American?

[Bananaman]

All I can say is there are some fucked up minds on this message forum.:think:

[JUGRNAUT]

Fuck the rich. I ain't rich or will I ever see 250K plus a year. Neither will any of you or you wouldn't be posting on HPJ arguing about politics, , .

Im not arguing about politics in this thread because I really could care less what anyone else thinks about a particular candidate but....

I laughed at that comment. Speak for yourself, and your own self-defeating outlook.

[TSDuke]

I laughed at that comment. Speak for yourself, and your own self-defeating outlook.

Cops are gayer.Cops are gayer.Cops are gayer.

lol

[msydnor]

None, that's politics, but this thread is about Obama, not McCain. I'm not a McCain supporter either.

If you don't think the people a person associates with helps mold they're beliefs ask yourself a few questions. How would you feel if a member of your family served on a board & was social with a known, unrepentant terrorist? Would you stay a member of a church that is racist & anti-American?

I'll answer your qestion with a question. Does the below bother you? It's starting to look like Romney may be the running mate for McCain, does it bother you that the mormon faith was blatenly racist for year? Whats the difference?

Founding Member of the Keating Five

Back in the old days, defendants in famous trials got numbers -- the Chicago Eight, the Gang of Four, the Dave Clark Five, the Daytona 500. McCain was one of the "Keating Five," congressmen investigated on ethics charges for strenuously helping convicted racketeer Charles Keating after he gave them large campaign contributions and vacation trips.

Charles Keating was convicted of racketeering and fraud in both state and federal court after his Lincoln Savings & Loan collapsed, costing the taxpayers $3.4 billion. His convictions were overturned on technicalities; for example, the federal conviction was overturned because jurors had heard about his state conviction, and his state charges because Judge Lance Ito (yes, that judge) screwed up jury instructions. Neither court cleared him, and he faces new trials in both courts.)
Though he was not convicted of anything, McCain intervened on behalf of Charles Keating after Keating gave McCain at least $112,00 in contributions. In the mid-1980s, McCain made at least 9 trips on Keating's airplanes, and 3 of those were to Keating's luxurious retreat in the Bahamas. McCain's wife and father-in-law also were the largest investors (at $350,000) in a Keating shopping center; the Phoenix New Times called it a "sweetheart deal."
Mafia ties:

In 1995, McCain sent birthday regards, and regrets for not attending, to Joseph "Joe Bananas" Bonano, the head of the New York Bonano crime family, who had retired to Arizona. Another politician to send regrets was Governor Fife Symington, who has since been kicked out of office and convicted of 7 felonies relating to fraud and extortion.

[msydnor]

None, that's politics, but this thread is about Obama, not McCain. I'm not a McCain supporter either.

If you don't think the people a person associates with helps mold they're beliefs ask yourself a few questions. How would you feel if a member of your family served on a board & was social with a known, unrepentant terrorist? Would you stay a member of a church that is racist & anti-American?

Since you bring up his assoiates, does it count for anything that his mother and grandparents who raised him were regular, christian white folk from Kansas...Who admit there were racist. I guess there is no way there wholesome values could have rubbed off on him? If you don't like the mans stance on the issues, that is fine, but this boogie man mentality is really absurd.

[msydnor]

What about this...you guys give Clinton hell for getting his knob slobbed. Is this OK? Is it OK his wife is a crack head?

McCain has a reputation as a politician who has difficulty keeping his pants zipped, according to Republican sources. He acknowledges that his adultery broke up his first marriage. His second wife Cindy, the daughter of a wealthy Budweiser beer distributor, was addicted to prescription narcotics and even stole hard drugs from a medical charity that she ran. McCain acknowledges that she didn't want him to run, and only agreed once he promised that she doesn't have to go to New Hampshire or Iowa.

[msydnor]

John McCain grew up Episcopalian. He went to an Episcopalian high school. For at least 15 years, he has been listed as an Episcopalian in authoritative directories such as the Almanac of American Politics and Congressional Quarterly's Politics in America 2008. He told a reporter from McClatchy News Service in June 2007 that he was an Episcopalian.

Suddenly, in September 2007, he's campaigning in South Carolina, the heavily Baptist state where George W. Bush barely managed to stop McCain's presidential campaign 8 years ago. And guess what? McCain tells a reporter "By the way, I'm not Episcopalian. I'm Baptist."
When pressed, he said he's attended the North Phoenix Baptist Church in Arizona for more than 15 years, though he has never been baptized in that church. Now see, that's exactly the problem. Baptism is kind of a big thing in the Baptist Church. (That's how they got the name.) No baptism, not Baptist. Anyway, details aside, this is one very clear indication of how McCain has changed. Now, he's just another hungry politician, happy to pander if it helps him win. Which eliminates the very reason people were excited about him in 2000 -- his honesty

Now lets look at what the Episcopalian thing is all about...looks like some pretty liberal Mother fuckers don't they.

The Episcopal Church was active in the Social Gospel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Gospel) movement of the late nineteenth century and since the 1960s and 1970s has played a leading role in the progressive and liberal movements on church and state issues. For example, in its resolutions on state issues the Episcopal Church has opposed the death penalty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment), and supported the civil rights movement and affirmative action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action). Some of its leaders and priests marched with demonstrators. Some dioceses ordain openly homosexual men and women; in others, same-sex unions are celebrated. However, on other issues such as abortion, the church has taken both sides of the debate.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_in_the_United_States_of_America#c ite_note-7)
In most dioceses, women are ordained to the priesthood and episcopate, as well as the diaconate. The current Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church is Katharine Jefferts Schori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Jefferts_Schori), the first female primate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate_%28religion%29) in the Anglican Communion

You guys are so busy looking for reasons to hate Obama, you are not looking at what the guy you plan to vote for is all about.

[msydnor]

Vote for who you want, just keep it real, this Obama boogyman mentality is silly. Both have flaws, and both don't fit the strict mold their parties promote. Me personnally, I like that, we have two candidates that are not the normal cookie cutter bullshit we have been getting for years.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

You used WIKIPEDIA as a source! DEVIL! DEVIIILLLLLL!

[danno]

The boogyman crap doesn't interest me. It's about the issues and the ones that mean a lot to me. I look at it this way. Do you really think if Obama was tied to Muslim extremest or part of a secret society of white people haters he would be still running? The CIA or whoever would have already plugged him and put the pistol in Billy Bob from Froglick, Arkansas hands to take the fall.

[TSDuke]

Since you bring up his assoiates, does it count for anything that his mother and grandparents who raised him were regular, christian white folk from Kansas...Who admit there were racist. I guess there is no way there wholesome values could have rubbed off on him? If you don't like the mans stance on the issues, that is fine, but this boogie man mentality is really absurd.

You seemed to have left out his other grandparents.

Not really sure what you mean about the boogie man mentality.

I honestly don't like his, or McCain's stance on a majority of the issues. I don't plan on voting for either. Fuckin Ron Paul is looking good to me right now.

[msydnor]

You used WIKIPEDIA as a source! DEVIL! DEVIIILLLLLL!

Didn't have time to look up reliable sources. Sorry. But I think you get the idea of my point.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

Didn't have time to look up reliable sources. Sorry. But I think you get the idea of my point.

I'm just busting your chops like so many people do mine. It's all good. I see what you're saying.

[msydnor]

You seemed to have left out his other grandparents.

Not really sure what you mean about the boogie man mentality.

I honestly don't like his, or McCain's stance on a majority of the issues. I don't plan on voting for either. Fuckin Ron Paul is looking good to me right now.
The one in kansas are the ones that raise him. By boogy man mentality I mean all these people that are acting like the day he is elected he will start going up rich people and bitch smacking them, take their money and give it to some poor welfare bitch. As soon as he is elected you will lose all your rights. I heard some guys last night after class planning to go buy a shit load of guns in case he is elected... like they will immediaetly loose their right to by a gun. We've had a lot of democratic presidents in my life time, and I have never "not: been able to buy a gun. Oh shit, OBAMA got elected, black people, go grab your white neighbor and tell that bitch he's now you slave. Give it a rest. He's a fucking polititan just like the rest. For middle class people, like most of us (under $250) Obama is more likely to identify with your problems than McCain. Obama got where he is through hard work, merger means, and smarts...the hard way. Just like most of us. That's not to say he's better, just that he's not the fucking boogie man.

[msydnor]

The boogyman crap doesn't interest me. It's about the issues and the ones that mean a lot to me. I look at it this way. Do you really think if Obama was tied to Muslim extremest or part of a secret society of white people haters he would be still running? The CIA or whoever would have already plugged him and put the pistol in Billy Bob from Froglick, Arkansas hands to take the fall.

He's so slick they can't catch him....he's the boogie man!!!

[Skelton]

He's not the Boogie Man. He's the Anti-Christ:evillol:

[Sleeper 362]

You know, some of yall really kill me. I will put it to you like this, I said it earlier and maybe it got lost in one of my long winded posts. I would rather vote for someone who is saying that they want to help the middle class (all of us) than vote for someone who doesn't give a shit about us at all. They all lie but I am not voting for someone who flat out says the middle class doesn't need any help, when if you take a look around, we do.

[msydnor]

He's not the Boogie Man. He's the Anti-Christ:evillol:

Don't laugh, there is a chain email circulating that says he is, and according to it, the bible backs it up.....boogie boogie boogie!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TSDuke]

You know, some of yall really kill me. I will put it to you like this, I said it earlier and maybe it got lost in one of my long winded posts. I would rather vote for someone who is saying that they want to help the middle class (all of us) than vote for someone who doesn't give a shit about us at all. They all lie but I am not voting for someone who flat out says the middle class doesn't need any help, when if you take a look around, we do.

I'm sorry you think it's the governments job to help you out. I personally feel the government should stay out of my shit, I'll help myself.

[Sleeper 362]

Im not arguing about politics in this thread because I really could care less what anyone else thinks about a particular candidate but....

I laughed at that comment. Speak for yourself, and your own self-defeating outlook.You know I feel you may have the best chance at not being middle class because your parents are not middle class. You know no other way to live and you have a better foundation than most of us had. Therefor if you don't do as well as your parents it will be in a sense failure on your part. Self defeatist outlook? Hell no, just realistic. I do not have the tools education or connections to be upper class, Yet. I will probably never make the connections or develope the tools but I am working on the education. I am comfortable where I am at, but I would still like to go farther in life. But again the truely upper class wouldn't be wasting their time on websites, they would be trying to make more money. My career as an online gaming personality is calling me. Gotta go make some money J/K :D

[Sleeper 362]

I'm sorry you think it's the governments job to help you out. I personally feel the government should stay out of my shit, I'll help myself.
I am not asking the government to help me. I just don't think we deserve to carry the burden anymore. Fuck it leave my taxes where they are just don't look to me anymore to bail us out of our dept. I'm tired of it and its about time they look to the people who benefit the most from living here to help this country when it needs it. It will be nice if he does get elected so when all the fat cats start complaining I can tell the the same shit they have been saying all along. "You don't like it? Then Leave." See how much money you make in Spain or England, I heard UAE is pretty progressive these days and they are all rich over there. See how you like it over there, maybe you'll be with the rest of the jobs that yall outsourced to get that bottom dollar.

[nightmare_92]

I'll answer your qestion with a question. Does the below bother you? It's starting to look like Romney may be the running mate for McCain, does it bother you that the mormon faith was blatenly racist for year? Whats the difference?

Founding Member of the Keating Five

Back in the old days, defendants in famous trials got numbers -- the Chicago Eight, the Gang of Four, the Dave Clark Five, the Daytona 500. McCain was one of the "Keating Five," congressmen investigated on ethics charges for strenuously helping convicted racketeer Charles Keating after he gave them large campaign contributions and vacation trips.

Charles Keating was convicted of racketeering and fraud in both state and federal court after his Lincoln Savings & Loan collapsed, costing the taxpayers $3.4 billion. His convictions were overturned on technicalities; for example, the federal conviction was overturned because jurors had heard about his state conviction, and his state charges because Judge Lance Ito (yes, that judge) screwed up jury instructions. Neither court cleared him, and he faces new trials in both courts.)
Though he was not convicted of anything, McCain intervened on behalf of Charles Keating after Keating gave McCain at least $112,00 in contributions. In the mid-1980s, McCain made at least 9 trips on Keating's airplanes, and 3 of those were to Keating's luxurious retreat in the Bahamas. McCain's wife and father-in-law also were the largest investors (at $350,000) in a Keating shopping center; the Phoenix New Times called it a "sweetheart deal."
Mafia ties:

In 1995, McCain sent birthday regards, and regrets for not attending, to Joseph "Joe Bananas" Bonano, the head of the New York Bonano crime family, who had retired to Arizona. Another politician to send regrets was Governor Fife Symington, who has since been kicked out of office and convicted of 7 felonies relating to fraud and extortion.

I looked this up because it did interest me to know but what you have printed seemed to skew the facts of the case. Mccain was of course involved but even the special investigator , Robert S. Bennett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Bennett) , said that he fully investigated McCain and that he suggested that the Senate Ethics Committee should not pursue charges against him and that he felt the only reason that McCain wasnt removed from the investigation was that it would only leave democrats involved with the incident. ( Bennette is also a Democrat himself)
After learning of the Trouble that Keating was in McCain paid for his Plane trips. McCain was found to have not done anything but
Keatings convictions wasnt just overturned on a technicality like it the judge forgot to dot the "i" or something the jury was not instructed as to how guilt should be found. It was a Savings and Loan deal and of course at that time it was a big thing so of course money was lost meaning open and shut case, but the jury wasnt instructed to determine if it was done intentionally so that is a big issue. The convictions was all overturned and after he had already served 4 years in prison he plead to the other charges for time served and also claimed bankruptcy and told them if any hidden assets turned up they would be forfeited.
McCain was rebuked by the Senate Ethics Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Ethics_Committee) for exercising "poor judgment" in intervening with the federal regulators on Keating's behalf,[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_and_Senate_career_of_John_McCain%2C_1982%E2% 80%931999#cite_note-az-keating-62) but the Senate panel's 1991 report said that McCain's "actions were not improper nor attended with gross negligence and did not reach the level of requiring institutional action against him."

So the things really seem a little skewed to me and this Keating fellow also donated 1.25 million to Mother Teresa in the 1980's. Does Someone is so greedy as to rip off lil ol ladies of their life savings get ahead by giving that money away to someone whose sole purpose in life is to give it to those in need , without benefit?
He also claimed the govt. regulators caused the collapse for the Savings and Loan and still does to this day. It does seem odd that the Feds would not be allowed a retrial by the Supreme Court if they had him on these charges.
What are the Charges he is facing now I didnt find anything on that. I am not a computer genious so I just looked on Wikipedia as was talked about in this thread.
I really didnt see anything on the birthday card but thing but is that a real issue? A lot of Joe Banana was a old school gangster that was born in 1905 and died in 2002. He was never covicted of a serious crime and he was 77 when McCain entered politics. Ol Bananaboy was here in the Heyday of gangsters and he resided in Arizona and perhaps asked McCain to attend his birthday party and McCain didnt want to say " go to hell" so he had a card sent and allowed himself not to be involved without disrespecting the man.
Anyway you guys are better at looking up this stuff than I am so is there some other stuff against McCain that actually holds up? I dont feel these did very well.

[msydnor]

I looked this up because it did interest me to know but what you have printed seemed to skew the facts of the case. Mccain was of course involved but even the special investigator , Robert S. Bennett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Bennett) , said that he fully investigated McCain and that he suggested that the Senate Ethics Committee should not pursue charges against him and that he felt the only reason that McCain wasnt removed from the investigation was that it would only leave democrats involved with the incident. ( Bennette is also a Democrat himself)
After learning of the Trouble that Keating was in McCain paid for his Plane trips. McCain was found to have not done anything but
Keatings convictions wasnt just overturned on a technicality like it the judge forgot to dot the "i" or something the jury was not instructed as to how guilt should be found. It was a Savings and Loan deal and of course at that time it was a big thing so of course money was lost meaning open and shut case, but the jury wasnt instructed to determine if it was done intentionally so that is a big issue. The convictions was all overturned and after he had already served 4 years in prison he plead to the other charges for time served and also claimed bankruptcy and told them if any hidden assets turned up they would be forfeited.
McCain was rebuked by the Senate Ethics Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Ethics_Committee) for exercising "poor judgment" in intervening with the federal regulators on Keating's behalf,[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_and_Senate_career_of_John_McCain%2C_1982%E2% 80%931999#cite_note-az-keating-62) but the Senate panel's 1991 report said that McCain's "actions were not improper nor attended with gross negligence and did not reach the level of requiring institutional action against him."

So the things really seem a little skewed to me and this Keating fellow also donated 1.25 million to Mother Teresa in the 1980's. Does Someone is so greedy as to rip off lil ol ladies of their life savings get ahead by giving that money away to someone whose sole purpose in life is to give it to those in need , without benefit?
He also claimed the govt. regulators caused the collapse for the Savings and Loan and still does to this day. It does seem odd that the Feds would not be allowed a retrial by the Supreme Court if they had him on these charges.
What are the Charges he is facing now I didnt find anything on that. I am not a computer genious so I just looked on Wikipedia as was talked about in this thread.
I really didnt see anything on the birthday card but thing but is that a real issue? A lot of Joe Banana was a old school gangster that was born in 1905 and died in 2002. He was never covicted of a serious crime and he was 77 when McCain entered politics. Ol Bananaboy was here in the Heyday of gangsters and he resided in Arizona and perhaps asked McCain to attend his birthday party and McCain didnt want to say " go to hell" so he had a card sent and allowed himself not to be involved without disrespecting the man.
Anyway you guys are better at looking up this stuff than I am so is there some other stuff against McCain that actually holds up? I dont feel these did very well.

You really just proved my point. If I had posted the exact same shit on Obama you guys would swear it's true. Or there was some deals cut and he's really guilty of some wrong doing. I noticed you didn't address the liberalness of his religion that he no longer claims...couldn't find a counter yet? What about the infidelity, conservatives say Clinton is a POS for getting his knob polished? What about his wife stealing drugs?

[apriorius]

It's not Obama's religion that bothers me; it's that the man he describes as a mentor of twenty years hates this country. That's a problem, period.

Handing around with admitted domestic terrorists is a problem. Period.

Obama is the most left leaning member of the entire senate. He's left of Hillary, 'ol Teddy, you name it.

Obama truly believes in and supports damn near every single idea that would destroy what makes this country great. Self sufficience, equality of opportunity, individual axceptionalism and the highest standard of living in the world. He thinks that those who do well don't deserve it; that those who do poorly are entitled to whatever they want dispite the fact that they didn't earn it. He thinks that most people are too stupid to live their own lives; that the government should have much much more power and oversight into the way we live.

Will he completely end our country? Nope...he'll only have 4 years, and by then he will fuck things up so badly that the american public will throw him and half his party out on their fucking ears. But in those four years, he could cause a LOT of damage, and frankly I'm not up for that.

If you really think otherwise, I do have a blanket statement for you: you're as blinded by his color as you accuse others of being, you're a goddam disgusting loser who wants to steal from your betters, or you're an idiot and/or not paying any attention whatsoever. I've thought about it a lot, and that's the only explanation I can come up with for anyone wanting to vote for the man.

I'm not going to try and defend McCain; he's far from perfect and not my choice...but I know damn well he's proud of this country and does not actively hate it. Given the alternative in Obama, I'm sad to say but that's probably enough for me to vote for him, even though I'll take a long hot shower afterward.

[msydnor]

It's not Obama's religion that bothers me; it's that the man he describes as a mentor of twenty years hates this country. That's a problem, period.

Handing around with admitted domestic terrorists is a problem. Period.

Obama is the most left leaning member of the entire senate. He's left of Hillary, 'ol Teddy, you name it.

Obama truly believes in and supports damn near every single idea that would destroy what makes this country great. Self sufficience, equality of opportunity, individual axceptionalism and the highest standard of living in the world. He thinks that those who do well don't deserve it; that those who do poorly are entitled to whatever they want dispite the fact that they didn't earn it. He thinks that most people are too stupid to live their own lives; that the government should have much much more power and oversight into the way we live.

Will he completely end our country? Nope...he'll only have 4 years, and by then he will fuck things up so badly that the american public will throw him and half his party out on their fucking ears. But in those four years, he could cause a LOT of damage, and frankly I'm not up for that.

If you really think otherwise, I do have a blanket statement for you: you're as blinded by his color as you accuse others of being, you're a goddam disgusting loser who wants to steal from your betters, or you're an idiot and/or not paying any attention whatsoever. I've thought about it a lot, and that's the only explanation I can come up with for anyone wanting to vote for the man.

I'm not going to try and defend McCain; he's far from perfect and not my choice...but I know damn well he's proud of this country and does not actively hate it. Given the alternative in Obama, I'm sad to say but that's probably enough for me to vote for him, even though I'll take a long hot shower afterward.

Gents, meet the Boogie man mentality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nightmare_92]

You really just proved my point. If I had posted the exact same shit on Obama you guys would swear it's true. Or there was some deals cut and he's really guilty of some wrong doing. I noticed you didn't address the liberalness of his religion that he no longer claims...couldn't find a counter yet? What about the infidelity, conservatives say Clinton is a POS for getting his knob polished? What about his wife stealing drugs?

I do not think I proved your point at all. You posted some things that I found interesting and looked them up as I stated and it looked alot different than what i felt I had read in your post. I would think that you would look these things up that you say are untrue about Obama and post them instead of just answering them with BS posts about McCain. I have read alot of everyones info and do not post that much about it as I was just reading but I hadnt heard anything like what you posted so I looked it up.
As far as ones religion I really dont care what religion that someone believes.
I was glad that Clinton was Heterosexual but I dont think he should have wasted millions of taxpayers dollars saying he didnt do it when he did.
I was watching something about McCains wife the other day that actually covered that drug issue and she admitted what all went on and how it happened, of course no drug problem is good but it didnt seem like she was selling ass for a fix she had access to them with her work and took some. It was a problem and it was taken care of ( it started after 2 spinal surgeries by the way so she was being prescribed them in the beginning) but what I did find interesting was that before she was with McCain she took low paying jobs and worked with handicapped children. One of the children that needed medical attention in the US she adopted and brought home from Mother Teresa's orphanage in Bangladesh and that became the mccains fourth child. So she doesnt seem like a crack head either.
I would be interested in what is the truth about Obama also but I do have a problem with alot of things about him and I have only seen the comments about the boogeyman or some nonsense to explain them. Things like starting the race thing or the boggeyman thing is a ridiculous attempt at making others feel bad about questioning him without actually looking at the facts that raised the questions in the first place. One thing that I would think would grab you right away was his interview stating he would not wear a flag pin, now of course a pin wouldnt make you a perfect person but when you feel strongly about your country and you wish to lead it one would certainly thing that a simple gesture such as a pin of the great nation that you wish to represent would be a honor. On the other hand it also makes me wonder if he felt so strongly against wearing it then who was he catering to? I attend races all the time and when the national anthem plays my hand is on my heart and the hat off my head, again not going to add to my financial statement but it is a show of respect for the country and the ones ( yourself included) that have given all they had to allow me to do what i do. Again not going to benefit me financially but respect is so easy to give so when someone is adamant about bucking this show of respect I ask myself why would they not want to.
Those are 2 very small things in the grand scope of things but I feel someone that will lead our country should respect it and its people and you may not feel as I do but for a possible future president to not do it is over the top for me.
I do not like that he didnt know his minister is a racists after 20 years of listening to his garbage. I didnt like that he lied and said he had never heard those types of things only to one week later say he had heard them but didnt agree with them. I didnt like him give his victim speech about racism only to refer to his grandmother as a " typical white woman" and while throwing granny under the bus he defends his racists preacher that he said was a mentor in his life as well as his spiritual advisor. Now how observant would a man be to spend 20 years exposed to stuff like that not know it?
I do not like his " the rich man is the enemy" mentality that will probably send us back to the Jimmy Carter days causing mass inflation and 21% prime interest rates just like ol jimmy did.
I do not like alot of things but do not care if he is black, white,latino or a damn smurf I want him to stand for this country and I just havnt seen the bridgebuilder that some of you have as he seems to be a very divisive person with his speeches stating that everyone wants you to be scared of him ,then obama said ,and did i mention that hes black. To be someone supposedly above racism he is the one that brings it up??
Enough for now but thats my feelings on Obama at this point.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

I do not like his " the rich man is the enemy" mentality that will probably send us back to the Jimmy Carter days causing mass inflation and 21% prime interest rates just like ol jimmy did.


Hell, to be fair OPEC had more to do with that than Jimmy did. From what I've read he did a lot to try and warn people and to encourage conservation. Jimmy was, and still is a damn good person with only the best intentions no matter how people perceive him. But that's really neither here nor there in this particular thread.

[apriorius]

Gents, meet the Boogie man mentality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, this shit is public record. His views are clear. There's no ambiguity at all...everything I said is true, provable, and obvious to anyone who is listening critically.

The difference between you and I is that I cede many of your points on McCain. You disavow anything critical said about Obama, no matter how factual or blatantly true.

You my friend are simply hearing what you want to hear, for whatever reason. You seem like a smart fella, so it's perplexing to see you reply with, essentially, nothing to diminish his crucial flaws other than pointing a finger across the aisle. Like I said, McCain sucks in many ways, but his history and associates leave NO DOUBT that he is a patriot. Not even you can say that about Obama. There's just too much there. Read Nightmare's post - every thing he said is true, on record, and in sum it shows a fucked up picture. I dunno what kind of cool-aid you're drinking but it must be pretty strong to be able to just ignore all that and support him.

Hate to say it dude, but it seems like you're all in for a black man in the white house, damn the consequences. Hey, I'd vote for Colin Powell any day...not because he's black, but because he'd do a better job than either of these clowns.

[RealDeal]

When will yall not realize he isn't talking about taking money from anyone to give to the poor. He is talking about getting the same amount of taxes from America but looking to the upperclass to pay more of their share to releive some of the middle class of their tax burdens.

Who will miss it more?

Are you freaking kidding me? Let's see if you can understand this simple concept, given in a relatively simple example.

Let's compare the benefits from US government to a product that you pay for through taxes. Essentially, everybody gets the same benefit: governance, freedom, rights, military protection, police and fire services, utilities, infrastructure, etc. just as everybody gets the same benefit out of a can of beans.

I make X amount of money per year and Bill Gates makes Y amount of money per year. A can of beans at the grocery store costs $1 (for simplicity). I pay $1 for the can of beans to get the benefit of a can of beans, and Bill Gates does as well. Makes sense, right?

But no, some people say that's not enough. Some people say that since Bill Gates makes more money than I do, he should pay more for the can of beans than I do, despite the fact that he gets essentially the same benefit. So people say we should both pay a percentage of our income for the can of beans. I still pay $1, but since Bill Gates is 2,173,913 times wealthier than I am, he should pay $2,173,913 for the can of beans. Same benefit.

But no, some people still say that's not enough. Some people say that since Bill Gates makes that much MORE money than I do, he should not only pay based on percentage of his income, but based on a higher percentage than me. His tax rate is approximately 3 times what mine is, so I pay $1 for the can of beans, and he pays $6,521,739 for the can of beans. Same benefit.

And NOW, some people say that's still not enough yet. Some people say that since Bill Gates makes that much MORE money than I do, and times are tough, he should pay the same amount of money for the can of beans, and I should only pay half of what I did. I pay $0.50 for the can of beans, he's still paying over $6.5 million for the can of beans (now over 13 million times more than what I pay).

That's SOCIALISM, and that's NOT "getting the same amount of taxes from America but looking to the upperclass to pay more of their share". The upper class' share is $1 for the can of beans, just as my share is $1 for the can of beans. That IS "taking money from [the upper class] to give to the poor".

And it's based on "Who will miss it more?" Which is SOCIALISM. Same for universal health care, same for welfare, same for almost everything Obama stands for.

Is it THAT hard to understand?

[RealDeal]

I could break it down even simpler. If you really do believe in socialism, step up to the plate and prove it.

You like online gaming. I'm not into online gaming at all. Say you have 4 games and I have none. Give me two of them - that's "fair." Let me know of a time when we can meet so I can get my two games. I'm not kidding.

Feel that inner drawback? That inner disgust? What did you feel? "He doesn't have a right to my games, what's he thinking? I paid for these games, why do I have to give them to him?"

EXACTLY

[shane bigler]

If you really do believe in socialism, step up to the plate and prove it.
what he said. If it's so great then lets hear it!

[msydnor]

Dude, this shit is public record. His views are clear. There's no ambiguity at all...everything I said is true, provable, and obvious to anyone who is listening critically.


There is plenty of ambiguity and very little of what you "say" Obama is, is provable, it is what you wanted to hear. You and I can listen to the same speach or interview and you will come away with something totally different from what I heard...the difference is, much of what you and nightmare call fact is not. Much of what you hear or see from Obama is not what was actually said,meant, or even implied, but for some reason you interpret it the way you want, for what ever reason, I say you here what you want to here. No matter what, you will not believe otherwise...The stuff I posted about McCain was to prove a point, not something I believe to be true. I think much of it was BS, so there is nothing to cede,. I could care less about what his wife did, she won't be runnign shit. His religion, I don't care if he is Episcopal or baptist, no matter to me. I will continue to listen to McCain unless he appoints Romney as his running mate. Romney, on the other hand (whos looking good to be McCains running mate) is a lifetime Mormon. Mormons have been racist in their practices period, but again, you guys seem to be Ok with mormon racism, why?...racism is racism, right? It's not that he is mormon per se, it's that racism has been part of the morman culture for years, which, to me means Romney has subcribed to that mindset all his life since he's been morman all his life, but that's OK I guess, I don't see the differnce. But Obamas "minister" not him, his preacher, make comment that you feel is racist, and you say Obama is racist. I guess every time my dad or minister, cousin, or friend says something racist, that makes me like them because I still associate with them. You say I will vote for Obama because he is black, I say you won't vote for him because he is black. I'm still open to both candidates, you've been open to only who ever will run as the republicans from the outset. Boo boo the fool could be running on the republican side and you will vote for him.

Something I found interesteing yesterday and made me think about some of these discussion. I was on Pope at the gas station yesterday. The national Anthem started playing. On Pope when the anthem plays everyone is suppose stops and pay tribute. I looked around and I was the only fucking person standing there with my hand over my heart, literally, WTF! I saw an Army guy get in his car and attempt to leave. I stopped him and jumped his shit and told him to get the fuck out...again, literally. Saw a cute blond chick run back to her car and get in, when it was over, she got out. People that were inside the store, stayed inside until the music stopped. Others kept pumping gas and totally ignored it. This is on a fucking military base! Every watch a NASCAR race or other sporting event, at the beginning? Not many folks even STFU let along pay any kind of tribute. But because some folk see Obama not with his hand over his heart, now all of a sudden you're all die hard patriots and "always put your hand over you heart" I call BS, I've been to far to may function to believe that. I think there are a shit load of hypocrits hear.

[msydnor]

That's SOCIALISM, and that's NOT "getting the same amount of taxes from America but looking to the upperclass to pay more of their share". The upper class' share is $1 for the can of beans, just as my share is $1 for the can of beans. That IS "taking money from [the upper class] to give to the poor".

And it's based on "Who will miss it more?" Which is SOCIALISM. Same for universal health care, same for welfare, same for almost everything Obama stands for.

Is it THAT hard to understand?

I find it very easy to understand and agree with you. The difference is, I think you guys are far overstating this issue as far as the presidents ability to fix it. Welfare and social programs will exist regardless of who the president is. It's been around for how long now? You guys make it sound like if a Rebublican is elected it will go away or miraculously, or all of a sudden it will be fixed and if a Democrat is elected all of a sudden we will all be broke because on pay day some governmenrt official will show up, bitch smack you and take all you money to some poor people. They haven't fixed it yet. Again, in order for shit to start getting fixed both parties have to work togther to develop solutions. The government acts like the people on this board, "My way is right, your way is wrong, so fuck you" That's fine for us Joes on a message board, but they are getting paid by us to be smarter than we are and do some conflict resolution, they (all of them) are not doing it. I need a president that will try and break down those barriers. Really all I disagree with from most of the far right views on this board is the greatly overstated, extremist, "the sky will fall mentality" Yeah, the sky may be falling, but, until they work togther, it will keep falling.

[HellTeeOne]

I just disagree with Obama's voting record.

I usually use www.ontheissues.org (http://www.ontheissues.org) for most of my broad based research on who I'm going to support. It doesn't have pictures, sound bytes, criticism or any other sort of human drama, it just states how these people have voted in the past and what they support.

I simply am going to vote for the one who's voting record and stance on the issues is closest to my ideal. Neither of these men currently running for POTUS is even remotely close to my ideal, but while McCain is maybe a couple hundred miles from it, Obama is pretty much halfway around the world from my stance.

D.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

I just disagree with Obama's voting record.


That, and examples that explain which ones and why make the best debates. Hurrah for information.

[RealDeal]

I find it very easy to understand and agree with you. The difference is, I think you guys are far overstating this issue as far as the presidents ability to fix it. Welfare and social programs will exist regardless of who the president is. It's been around for how long now? You guys make it sound like if a Rebublican is elected it will go away or miraculously, or all of a sudden it will be fixed and if a Democrat is elected all of a sudden we will all be broke because on pay day some governmenrt official will show up, bitch smack you and take all you money to some poor people.

And I agree, to a degree. However, saying that whoever we elect as president has no bearing on whether socialist programs we have are lessened, remain the same, or increased isn't accurate, either. One thing is for sure: Obama is 100% for socialism, and McCain (in general) isn't. The fact that we've already become too socialist isn't a reason to give up fighting it entirely and welcoming it with open arms (voting for Obama).

I'm not going to be anyone's "comrade." This country's problem isn't any individual or POTUS, it's US citizens that in general are getting lazier and lazier to the point of leeching off of those who still do the work and justifying it with an "I'm the victim here" attitude. It's equivalent to cancer that's eating us from the inside. We've fought socialism and communism in countries throughout our existance to preserve our freedom and the promotion of the free market. Countless numbers of American sons have died here and abroad for that cause, and now our own ignorant and irresponsible citizens have welcomed the sickness. We're heading for destruction, unfortunately, in the same ways that many great nations in the past have: not by outside force, but rotting from the inside out. I'll have no part in it.

[msydnor]

I just disagree with Obama's voting record.

I usually use www.ontheissues.org (http://www.ontheissues.org) for most of my broad based research on who I'm going to support. It doesn't have pictures, sound bytes, criticism or any other sort of human drama, it just states how these people have voted in the past and what they support.

I simply am going to vote for the one who's voting record and stance on the issues is closest to my ideal. Neither of these men currently running for POTUS is even remotely close to my ideal, but while McCain is maybe a couple hundred miles from it, Obama is pretty much halfway around the world from my stance.

D.

That makes sense.

[msydnor]

And I agree, to a degree. However, saying that whoever we elect as president has no bearing on whether socialist programs we have are lessened, remain the same, or increased isn't accurate, either. One thing is for sure: Obama is 100% for socialism, and McCain (in general) isn't. The fact that we've already become too socialist isn't a reason to give up fighting it entirely and welcoming it with open arms (voting for Obama).

I'm not going to be anyone's "comrade." This country's problem isn't any individual or POTUS, it's US citizens that in general are getting lazier and lazier to the point of leeching off of those who still do the work and justifying it with an "I'm the victim here" attitude. It's equivalent to cancer that's eating us from the inside. We've fought socialism and communism in countries throughout our existance to preserve our freedom and the promotion of the free market. Countless numbers of American sons have died here and abroad for that cause, and now our own ignorant and irresponsible citizens have welcomed the sickness. We're heading for destruction, unfortunately, in the same ways that many great nations in the past have: not by outside force, but rotting from the inside out. I'll have no part in it.

Bush has been in office for 8 years and these programs are fixed? I 'd say probably not even reduced, I'd venture to say maybe even increased. I'd guess that your ideals and bushes align pretty much...Ideals are great, taking action smartly...well that's another thing. Most demacrates you talk to will agree with you on many of the social program, especially welfare. Universal (socialized health care), to me, it will become another thorn in our side like welfare programs, or medicare/medicade. I have yet to see the government run programs like this and not fuck it up.

[RealDeal]

And I never said that these programs were reduced, eliminated, etc. with Bush. I'm also not saying that McCain is definitely going to eliminate or reduce socialism, either, but I DO KNOW that Obama FREELY ADMITS that he supports socialism.

Besides, the focus of my above post is that the problem is with American citizens.

We pretty much agree. :)

[msydnor]

Besides, the focus of my above post is that the problem is with American citizens.

We pretty much agree. :)

This we definetely agree on.

[apriorius]

But Obamas "minister" not him, his preacher, make comment that you feel is racist, and you say Obama is racist. I guess every time my dad or minister, cousin, or friend says something racist, that makes me like them because I still associate with them. You say I will vote for Obama because he is black, I say you won't vote for him because he is black. I'm still open to both candidates, you've been open to only who ever will run as the republicans from the outset.

Your Kung-Fu is weak.

It's not just his "minister", it's his mentor, you know, the guy he dedicated a book to? Yeah, he's racist (not just my opinion - widely recognized), but that doesn't bother me as much as the fact that his teachings show that he hates this nation. Does a relationship that close with someone who has such opinions bleed over to Obama? You bet your ass. When you try and minimize it you're being incredibly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

Not sure how to get this through to you, so I'll say it again - I don't give two shits what color he is, I care what he will do to my country. If you want to be convinced I'm racially motivated, fine, nothing I can do about it and honestly I don't care much.

Finally, to close out the ad hominum attacks you replied with instead of arguing the actual issues, I'm MUCH more libertarian than I am Republican. I switched my registration to independant a couple months ago because it became clear to me that the current Republican party is anything but conservative, and does not stand up for conservative principles. I've never once voted a straight party line ticket in my life. Names mean nothing - action and records do. I've voted Dem in the past when they showed better conservative principles than their opponents...not often, but it happens.

[HellTeeOne]

This we definetely agree on.

Third. Apathy is a bitch.

D.

[Bananaman]

Originally Posted by Sleeper 362 http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/showthread.php?p=918423#post918423)
Fuck the rich. I ain't rich or will I ever see 250K plus a year. Neither will any of you or you wouldn't be posting on HPJ arguing about politics, , .
Im not arguing about politics in this thread because I really could care less what anyone else thinks about a particular candidate but....

I laughed at that comment. Speak for yourself, and your own self-defeating outlook.

Oh my god! I just saw this and LOLed !!:)

[msydnor]

Your Kung-Fu is weak.

It's not just his "minister", it's his mentor, you know, the guy he dedicated a book to? Yeah, he's racist (not just my opinion - widely recognized), but that doesn't bother me as much as the fact that his teachings show that he hates this nation. Does a relationship that close with someone who has such opinions bleed over to Obama? You bet your ass. When you try and minimize it you're being incredibly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

Not sure how to get this through to you, so I'll say it again - I don't give two shits what color he is, I care what he will do to my country. If you want to be convinced I'm racially motivated, fine, nothing I can do about it and honestly I don't care much..

Another thing we have in common, I'm a registered independent. FWIW, I have very similar conversations with the far left liberal democrats too. I sometimes use shit I get from you. I know plenty of people that are voting for Obama and have no idea what he stands for, or what his policies are. They are voting for him because he is black. Period. IMO that is idiotic. I had a women I work with recently who was planning to vote for Hilary. I assumed she was a democrat. Nope, she was a republican but she was planning to vote for Hilary because she was a female, those were the words out of her mouth. Never took the time to find out anything Clinton was selling. That's stupid and I made it known. And the people I see on the the news that were supporting Clinton and as soon as she drops out they switch to McCain. This one really confused the hell out of me. Clinton and Obama were not that far apart as far as the issues. IMO Hillary is a lying (fill in the blanK) The people are Democrates and share the ideals of the democratic party. But they would rather vote for the other party who shares nothing in common with them, I find that idiotic as hell.
I can't count the times I have defended Bush because some liberal was blaming him for shit he had no control over, nothing to do with or claiming he was in on 911, and you can't convience them otherwise. I'm not a big fan of Bush, but BS is BS. And lets not leave out the ones that think and hope if they vote for Obama they will have free medical care, a pocket full of money and all kinds of free shit. There are a lot of people still waiting on their 40 acres and a mule...again, idiotic. And lets not leave out the black folks that swear the government got black people on crack in an effort to exterminate the race. Oh, and the ones that say abortion numbers are higher in black females because the government is trying to exterminate the black race. This is all true shit that in many cases, educated people believe. I guess for me, extreme viewpoints tend to stray to far away from rational thought and reasoning.
As far as rev wright, I agree the man is a knucle head. However, I find it hard to accept his assosiation with a preacher can override his upbringing. I know that means nothing to you because you don't think the people that raised him had any influence on his life. I guess I find it as difficult to dismiss that as you find it diffcult to dismiss his assosiation with Wright.

You never adressed my view point on Romney. Are racist views supported by mormons any different from racist views supported by Wright? If Romney gets the nod, is that an issue? again, racist is racist

[shane bigler]

People need to learn how to vote, seriously. It's easy.

Step 1: Vote for what/whom is best for the country, your fellow man, and society; NOT what is best for yourself.

[TSDuke]

You never adressed my view point on Romney. Are racist views supported by mormons any different from racist views supported by Wright? If Romney gets the nod, is that an issue? again, racist is racist

There are differences, but both are bad so....

Romney will NOT get selected for McCain's VP running mate.

[Bananaman]

People need to learn how to vote, seriously. It's easy.

Step 1: Vote for what/whom is best for the country, your fellow man, and society; NOT what is best for yourself.


If that would happen, everyone would vote for RON PAUL!

[msydnor]

There are differences, but both are bad so....



I'd love to hear what the difference is.

[TSDuke]

I'd love to hear what the difference is.

Oh, it's worse in Romney's case. What I mean is you can't compare an entire religion to 1 man in a religion. Rev. Wright is a racist, his religion isn't. Romney's religion teaches that Cain and his descendants were placed under a curse, namely, black skin, a curse that prevented almost all of Cain's descendants from being allowed entry into the Mormon priesthood.

[msydnor]

What I find funny is, if I'm on a board that is predominantly liberal, they think I'm republican because I'm calling them out...:)

[apriorius]

As far as rev wright, I agree the man is a knucle head. However, I find it hard to accept his assosiation with a preacher can override his upbringing. I know that means nothing to you because you don't think the people that raised him had any influence on his life. I guess I find it as difficult to dismiss that as you find it diffcult to dismiss his assosiation with Wright.

You never adressed my view point on Romney. Are racist views supported by mormons any different from racist views supported by Wright? If Romney gets the nod, is that an issue? again, racist is racist

I definitely don't think that how a person is raised has nothing to do with how they turn out...it has a large influence. And to be honest I don't know much about his parents or how he was raised. But if you have a close relationship with someone for 20 years, they're going to influence you...doubly so if you consider them a mentor. The very definition of a mentor is someone who teaches you and helps you grow. That growth will take place and be judged by the standards of the mentor, which to a large extent comes from their own personal beliefs. There's no question Wright hates America and many if not most of the things it stands for. You really, really think Obama took nothing away from that?

But let's for the sake of argument say he didn't know (which I find impossible), and he really doesn't share Wrights views. The fact that he was in a close relationship with him for such a long period of time without realizing the mans true beliefs shows a crucial lack of judgement, awareness and interpersonal skills. That being the case, how well do you think he will do choosing advisors should he be elected? If he misreads a close associate for twenty years, how well will he do sitting down and negotiating with terrorists like he wants to? No matter how you look at it, it should put very very serious doubts in your mind about his competence. That's why it has not gone away as an issue. It's just too big to overlook or sweep under the rug.

As far as Romney, there are some similarities, but also some large differences. Obama chose his particular reverend, and it would have been simple for him to realize how extreme the environment was, and simply go to another place of worship. The racism Romney is accused of was institutionalized throughout his entire religion. He couldn't just walk out the door and find another Mormon church that had different views. Speaking of upbringing, if you're brought up in a particular faith it's quite a bit more difficult to make a switch, especially one with such specific beliefs as the LDS church has. I'm not trying to absolve him, just trying to show that there are different circumstances to consider.

[HellTeeOne]

Who cares about race-baiting or preachers or Mormons or other shit. The problem is Iraq.


Nuke their ass and take their gas!

D.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

If that would happen, everyone would vote for RON PAUL!


Sometimes I can't tell when you're joking.

But all publicity is good publicity!

[msydnor]

Sometimes I can't tell when you're joking.

But all publicity is good publicity!

Ron paul has more that I agree with than any candidate.

[Bananaman]

Sometimes I can't tell when you're joking.

But all publicity is good publicity!


I am serious. I WILL Vote for Ron Paul.I like what I have heard from him so far.

[danno]

I'd love to hear what the difference is.

Didn't the LDS reverse their stance on Blacks in church positions?

[apriorius]

Yes they did, although it was fairly recent I believe (like last few decades).

[msydnor]

Didn't the LDS reverse their stance on Blacks in church positions?

Yes, back in the late 80, when the federal govenment was going to take away there exemption status. Didn't want to lose that revenue so all of a sudden they became reformed overnight. Unfortunately it was not do to a genuine change of heart.

[apriorius]

Yes, back in the late 80, when the federal govenment was going to take away there exemption status. Didn't want to lose that revenue so all of a sudden they became reformed overnight. Unfortunately it was not do to a genuine change of heart.

I'm not trying to justify the church's position, but the LDS faith is hardly the only religion which has deemed other races inferior. Practically every religion has deemed Jews inferior at one time or another. Fundamentalist Muslim religion preaches that disbelievers (kuffar) are inferior...do you think all Muslims believe that? Point is, I doubt any majority of Mormons walk around thinking black people are inferior just because the book of mormon says so.

[msydnor]

I'm not trying to justify the church's position, but the LDS faith is hardly the only religion which has deemed other races inferior. Practically every religion has deemed Jews inferior at one time or another. Fundamentalist Muslim religion preaches that disbelievers (kuffar) are inferior...do you think all Muslims believe that? Point is, I doubt any majority of Mormons walk around thinking black people are inferior just because the book of mormon says so.

I would be more inclined to believe that a large percentage do. A Co-worker of mine whos parents still go to mormon church tells me her folks and most of the ones that are in the faith still believe that way, just can't say it publically any more. But more so, your comment even goes futher to prove some of my points. You will rationalize, trivialize, or what ever the institutionalized racism of the mormon church, but you can no way shape or form grasp that Obama is not racist because his preacher is. That makes no sense to me what so ever.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

Point is, I doubt any majority of Mormons walk around thinking black people are inferior just because the book of mormon says so.


How can someone choose to follow only some aspects of the faith they believe in? I never understood how people can cherry-pick what they like about something that's supposed to be divine.

Ahh but that's a topic for another thread. Romney sucks.

[apriorius]

I would be more inclined to believe that a large percentage do. A Co-worker of mine whos parents still go to mormon church tells me her folks and most of the ones that are in the faith still believe that way, just can't say it publically any more. But more so, your comment even goes futher to prove some of my points. You will rationalize, trivialize, or what ever the institutionalized racism of the mormon church, but you can no way shape or form grasp that Obama is not racist because his preacher is. That makes no sense to me what so ever.

Um, I never said Obama was a racist.

Also, I'm not trying to justify anything. I think the whole situation is pretty fucked up - it's definitely not right. Honestly I have no idea what Joe Mormon thinks, but I would hope that they aren't racist just because it's in their religions body of literature. Does the church actually *teach* that blacks are inferior in this day and age? Or is it just a skeleton in the closet of their books? Not trying to affront, just curious.

As far as Romney sucking, I'd take him over McCain any day.

[apriorius]

How can someone choose to follow only some aspects of the faith they believe in?

Haha, you don't know any Catholics do you? :D

[msydnor]

Um, I never said Obama was a racist.

Also, I'm not trying to justify anything. I think the whole situation is pretty fucked up - it's definitely not right. Honestly I have no idea what Joe Mormon thinks, but I would hope that they aren't racist just because it's in their religions body of literature. Does the church actually *teach* that blacks are inferior in this day and age? Or is it just a skeleton in the closet of their books? Not trying to affront, just curious.

As far as Romney sucking, I'd take him over McCain any day.

It's not taught publically any more. But, they just decided to make this reform about 20 years ago and it wasn't because they had a change of heart, it was about money, i.e federal exemption status, etc. It was not just in their literature, it was taught, and practiced. My wife is from Utah and went to mormon school and churches. If McCain selects Romney, I'd be done listening to him.

[danno]

It's not taught publically any more. But, they just decided to make this reform about 20 years ago and it wasn't because they had a change of heart, it was about money, i.e federal exemption status, etc. It was not just in their literature, it was taught, and practiced. My wife is from Utah and went to mormon school and churches. If McCain selects Romney, I'd be done listening to him.

I guess you were present in their meaning when the reason to relax the policy was discussed? There is no way you can "know" that information. It's just and opinion and nothing more. I've known and been close with a lot of Mormons, and although I don't subscribe to their faith, I never met a one who was any sort of racist. They were all actually very good people.

[msydnor]

I guess you were present in their meaning when the reason to relax the policy was discussed? There is no way you can "know" that information. It's just and opinion and nothing more. I've known and been close with a lot of Mormons, and although I don't subscribe to their faith, I never met a one who was any sort of racist. They were all actually very good people.

Acutally with a little research you can find plenty of information to support what I have stated. There is no way one can "Know" a lot of shit that they claim they "know" and is "fact" That's been my point all along. I don't dislike mormons. When I was in Montana back in 89-92, I had several mormon missionary's that use to come to my house every week doing their missionary thing. One was black, one of the first ones, and yeah I use to fuck with him big time. It was all in fun, and we had a lot of fun debating the mormon mindset...I got the little fuckers drunk too. Don't get me wrong, Romney may not feel that way. I've never met him, but being a lifetime mormon, and being older than me, at one point he more than likely held that view, and for a long time. Long enough to make it difficult to all of a sudden change. But this solidifies another point I've been trying to convey. If one of these guys here some shit on Obama, they will search the internet far and wide to prove it. They claim they are so into finding the facts. On the other hand, a guy like Romney and the Mormon issue is out there and half know nothing about it, and I know I brought it up in a few previous political threads. And when they do, they don't give a fuck. They give a fuck that Rev Wright is a racist (one person), but don't give a fuck about Romney who was part of institutionalized rasicims. They don't give fuck that if you look past the surface of Mccain, he's liberal as hell. I personally want to no WTF is up with both sides. But some don't give a shit. How can you rationalize away institutional racism? You can't see my point? One is no worse or better than the other

[msydnor]

I guess you were present in their meaning when the reason to relax the policy was discussed? There is no way you can "know" that information.

I guess these other folks were in the room with Obama and Wright? and they can prove Obama believes the same shit that wright does?

[danno]

I guess these other folks were in the room with Obama and Wright? and they can prove Obama believes the same shit that wright does?

I get your point, but for a minute there it was sounding like you were saying Romney was the "boogyman" :)

[msydnor]

I get your point, but for a minute there it was sounding like you were saying Romney was the "boogyman" :)


:lmao::lmao::lmao:

[nightmare_92]

Actually with a little research you can find plenty of information to support what I have stated. There is no way one can "Know" a lot of shit that they claim they "know" and is "fact" That's been my point all along. I don't dislike mormons. When I was in Montana back in 89-92, I had several mormon missionary's that use to come to my house every week doing their missionary thing. One was black, one of the first ones, and yeah I use to fuck with him big time. It was all in fun, and we had a lot of fun debating the mormon mindset...I got the little fuckers drunk too. Don't get me wrong, Romney may not feel that way. I've never met him, but being a lifetime mormon, and being older than me, at one point he more than likely held that view, and for a long time. Long enough to make it difficult to all of a sudden change. But this solidifies another point I've been trying to convey. If one of these guys here some shit on Obama, they will search the internet far and wide to prove it. They claim they are so into finding the facts. On the other hand, a guy like Romney and the Mormon issue is out there and half know nothing about it, and I know I brought it up in a few previous political threads. And when they do, they don't give a fuck. They give a fuck that Rev Wright is a racist (one person), but don't give a fuck about Romney who was part of institutionalized rasicims. They don't give fuck that if you look past the surface of Mccain, he's liberal as hell. I personally want to no WTF is up with both sides. But some don't give a shit. How can you rationalize away institutional racism? You can't see my point? One is no worse or better than the other

Right now I fail to see Romneys religion as a issue since but I didnt know what you was talking about so I looked it up. you are correct on the issue of racism but its not like they are the KKK as they allowed blacks in but just didnt allow them into priesthood. I agree this is wrong but again I dont think it fits into what I would get me all riled up. Times change and people have grown, it was 1978 when they started allowing blacks in the priesthood again.

Anyway like I said that doesnt really matter at this point. Mike I do not know why you stated that you are posting this to prove a point that we are all believing this shit against Obama no matter what it is. I was pulling for Obama over Hillary commented and laughed at him making her look like a fool. The military apparently didnt teach you the jedi mind reading trick yet because I think you have it very wrong. I also doubt your post filled with the twists was just your test for us. We all know there is alot of bullshit on these sites and some valid questions and issues have been raised and you can only come on here talking about a boogeyman or racism. Now this could be all avoided if you had took the time to prove a point about what was said wrong about Obama instead of trying to twist shit against his opponent. You stated that we believe anything about Oboma but will defend McCain by looking it up so why havnt you looked something up. It looks like you will spew anykind of propaganda against McCain but will not look at objections against Obama, perhaps take a look back at what you have written about us and then look in the mirror at yourself.
I also said something about the flag pin and the national anthem and you chose to equate this with your story of being at a gas station and how you have been to races and seen people that paid no attenttion to the national anthem. Well I didnt make claims as to other folks I made one for me as I will stop and remove my hat and hand is placed on my heart because I felt it was a show of respect . Now i know alot do not and I know when you are talking and some start the anthem you may not even know it started and some people just dont care like you stated. I think the point I was making was that this man isnt applying for the manager of walmart position he is trying to be the President of the United States of America and I think that when a he is at a press conference to show why he should be our leader that he should show respect and be an example.

Long story short people have some questions about Obama and McCain and they should be discussed without all the BS. We can vote for who we want but we can also try and inform each other on things that we have heard and figure out what is true and what is not by using examples and references. Obama has a very short history and I stated some things that Bothered me as did others. Another problem I had was how he attacked everyone on their decisions and then John Edwards called him on his "present" votes, how does a man critasize anothers decisions when he couldnt even make one? Doesnt that bother you?

[nightmare_92]

Hell, to be fair OPEC had more to do with that than Jimmy did. From what I've read he did a lot to try and warn people and to encourage conservation. Jimmy was, and still is a damn good person with only the best intentions no matter how people perceive him. But that's really neither here nor there in this particular thread.

I agree that Carter is a great guy and probably one of the best humanitarians ever but he may also be a little to nice when dealing with foes. As far as OPEC they had alot to do with the economy but it was Jimmy and his people that raised the taxes and stuff alot like what Obama is talking about and raised interest rates and it proved to be a very big mistake. His brother was also the Beerman not sure if your old enough to know but when ol Jimmy was in office his brother became famous for Billy Beer lol .

[Brandon Smith]

Don't get me wrong, Romney may not feel that way. I've never met him, but being a lifetime mormon, and being older than me, at one point he more than likely held that view, and for a long time. Long enough to make it difficult to all of a sudden change.


So let me get this straight you are saying that your not sure if Romney is a racist and feels that way but because of the type of religion he grew up in over the many years tend to make you believe that he is. And if he is the running mate then you are done listening at all for McCain. But Obama can call a racist a mentor and can have that mentor preach that but you will listen to Obama all day long? Hmmmm sounds like a one way street to me :think:

[msydnor]

So let me get this straight you are saying that your not sure if Romney is a racist and feels that way but because of the type of religion he grew up in over the many years tend to make you believe that he is. And if he is the running mate then you are done listening at all for McCain. But Obama can call a racist a mentor and can have that mentor preach that but you will listen to Obama all day long? Hmmmm sounds like a one way street to me :think:

You don't read very well. Romneys views are likely that of the religion he spent his entire life in and is still in, not some preacher or other person. It is a culture, it is a way of thinking and living. I can draw that line directly to him. There is a big differnce from knowing someone racist and practicing it youself. One sided????that's a laugh. From the responses I've seen here, most seem to think the whole moron thing "Isn't that bad"

[msydnor]

So let me get this straight you are saying that your not sure if Romney is a racist and feels that way but because of the type of religion he grew up in over the many years tend to make you believe that he is. And if he is the running mate then you are done listening at all for McCain. But Obama can call a racist a mentor and can have that mentor preach that but you will listen to Obama all day long? Hmmmm sounds like a one way street to me :think:

Try this, if you grew up in the KKK, and your still a member, might one assume you still believe that way. Also, if the mormon had a change in basic doctrine vs a change in policiy for financial reason I'd also be less inclined to have an issue. Lets just hope McCain doesn't pick the fucker so I still have two candidate to listen too.

[Brandon Smith]

You don't read very well. Romneys views are likely that of the religion he spent his entire life in, not some preacher or other person. It is a culture, it is a way of thinking and living. I can draw that line directly to him. There is a big differnce from knowing someone racist and practicing it youself. Onesides????that a laugh.

I do believe 20 years is plenty of time being in and listening inside a racists church and preacher to be most of his life. 20 years!!!!! I mean think about it from age that he is born to a certain amount its not like it really matters at all because he is not even going to understand or comprehend. And like aporius said he devoted a damn book to the man, my goodness how much more do you need before you see that maybe he has the same views.

[Brandon Smith]

Try this, if you grew up in the KKK, and your still a member, might one assume you still believe that way. Also, if the mormon had a change in basic doctrine vs a change in policiy for financial reason I'd also be less inclined to have an issue. Lets just hope McCain doesn't pick the fucker so I still have two candidate to listen too.


So let me get this straight from your way of thinking as long as i am not born in the KKK and just later on i attend the meetings for 20 years and hear all their speeches and lectures on it I am good then? I am possibly not a racist even though i say the leader is a mentor of mine and I felt comfortable being there and dont condemn the man......

[nightmare_92]

Wow! Did anyone see the news coverage on the New Yorker? They had a cartoon with Obama dressed as a muslim and his wife with a rifle ( kinda looked like a terrorists) and a pic of Bin Laden on the wall. I never seen the new yorker but it sounds like its the type of things they normally do but they are catching a little crap about this, on the other hand they will probably sell 5 times as many magazines.

[Sleeper 362]

Wow! Did anyone see the news coverage on the New Yorker? They had a cartoon with Obama dressed as a muslim and his wife with a rifle ( kinda looked like a terrorists) and a pic of Bin Laden on the wall. I never seen the new yorker but it sounds like its the type of things they normally do but they are catching a little crap about this, on the other hand they will probably sell 5 times as many magazines.Its tasteless but I like its message. If I listened to all yall on the right, I would have taken that as a portrait and not for the message it was really trying to convey.

[The Funkmeister]

So...When is Obama planning his pilgrimage to Mecca? :fluffy: :D :lmao:

[apriorius]

The New Yorker cover is satire; they're saying thats how McCain is trying to paint Obama. Which is funny since the McCain campaign has been a complete pussy who is giving Obama what amounts to a free ride.

[nightmare_92]

The New Yorker cover is satire; they're saying thats how McCain is trying to paint Obama. Which is funny since the McCain campaign has been a complete pussy who is giving Obama what amounts to a free ride.

Oh I didnt understand that. I know mccain doesnt say that stuff. He has defended Obama on alot of things. I was reading a article in the new yorker online and I didnt think it said anything bad about Obama so i was wondering why that would be the cover. They had a pretty long article about Obama and his rise in Chicago and how he won previous elections. It was a interesting read.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

It's just good to see either side not slinging shit just yet. Karl Rove must be on house arrest... and it feels gooood.

[Sleeper 362]

Oh I didnt understand that. I know mccain doesnt say that stuff. He has defended Obama on alot of things. I was reading a article in the new yorker online and I didnt think it said anything bad about Obama so i was wondering why that would be the cover. They had a pretty long article about Obama and his rise in Chicago and how he won previous elections. It was a interesting read.That has been what I have been seeing about McCains stance as well. He has stood up to the people trying to push stereo types about Obama (quietly though). He wants to win the presidency by beating Obama and not letting the ignorance of his followers (a lot shit that has been posted on here comes to mind) beat Obama. That is commendable and a good departure from GWs tactics. Props to McCain.

The shit I see and the E Mails I get from others is fucking stupid. It sux that he has to prove himself like he has. No other candidate for the presidency has come under more slander than he has and the reasons why are all because of the ignorance that a lot of white Americans still posseses towards blacks and muslims or any people that are not WASPs. People here want to beleive that he is something more than he is to justify their bigotry, but in the end they are all still bigots because no matter what they will find their reasons. Even if he said he has a full proof plan to help us and every expert agreed that it would work you would look to something else to disqualify him.

I am not by any means pro black and I by no means a dedicated dem. or anything of the sort. If yall remember in the Jena Six debate I was against the Jena Six and even called people out for being one sided. I've argued against the one sided racial disrimination lawsuits and have argued against affirmative action still taking part in today's work place. Shit I was on the Duke Boy's said from day one. I also want to clarify that I beleive this is NOT the sentiment of all white people, not even a lot or half of people. But like you say about "all the radical terrorists are muslim." "All the people perveying this ignorant attitude are white." It saddens me that with all the strides that both races black and white have made to become more unified there are still people on both sides doing more to set us back. That is why I jump into these political arguments, not neccessarily to argue politics but to see what bullshit is being conveyed now and who I can't trust. Some of the shit being said sounds so bigoted/ignorant that I can't beleive some of the shit being said.

That is what I think the "hangups" some of yall have if you didn't gather that by now..

[msydnor]

The New Yorker cover is satire; they're saying thats how McCain is trying to paint Obama. Which is funny since the McCain campaign has been a complete pussy who is giving Obama what amounts to a free ride.

I find it comendable and honorable that McCain has thus far not resorted to smear tactics. IMO, McCain is a stand up guy.

[apriorius]

I find it comendable and honorable that McCain has thus far not resorted to smear tactics. IMO, McCain is a stand up guy.

I suppose. There's about eleventy billion things the McCain campaign could call the dems overall and Obama in particular out on which would not be "smear", but rather raising factual issues and the stance the other sides takes on it. So far, nothing. If Obama wins this, McCain will have no one but himself to blame.

[apriorius]

That has been what I have been seeing about McCains stance as well. He has stood up to the people trying to push stereo types about Obama (quietly though). He wants to win the presidency by beating Obama and not letting the ignorance of his followers (a lot shit that has been posted on here comes to mind) beat Obama. That is commendable and a good departure from GWs tactics. Props to McCain.

The shit I see and the E Mails I get from others is fucking stupid. It sux that he has to prove himself like he has. No other candidate for the presidency has come under more slander than he has and the reasons why are all because of the ignorance that a lot of white Americans still posseses towards blacks and muslims or any people that are not WASPs. People here want to beleive that he is something more than he is to justify their bigotry, but in the end they are all still bigots because no matter what they will find their reasons. Even if he said he has a full proof plan to help us and every expert agreed that it would work you would look to something else to disqualify him.

I am not by any means pro black and I by no means a dedicated dem. or anything of the sort. If yall remember in the Jena Six debate I was against the Jena Six and even called people out for being one sided. I've argued against the one sided racial disrimination lawsuits and have argued against affirmative action still taking part in today's work place. Shit I was on the Duke Boy's said from day one. I also want to clarify that I beleive this is NOT the sentiment of all white people, not even a lot or half of people. But like you say about "all the radical terrorists are muslim." "All the people perveying this ignorant attitude are white." It saddens me that with all the strides that both races black and white have made to become more unified there are still people on both sides doing more to set us back. That is why I jump into these political arguments, not neccessarily to argue politics but to see what bullshit is being conveyed now and who I can't trust. Some of the shit being said sounds so bigoted/ignorant that I can't beleive some of the shit being said.

That is what I think the "hangups" some of yall have if you didn't gather that by now..

You're completely full of shit and wrong, but I'm pretty much done talking to you because you don't deal in the realm of logic; you just spout your opinions and whatever generalizations you've read in the N&O or watched on the Daily Show. Besides, every time I have addressed specific issues you bring up, you have no answer and just keep spouting the same crap.

[msydnor]

I suppose. There's about eleventy billion things the McCain campaign could call the dems overall and Obama in particular out on which would not be "smear", but rather raising factual issues and the stance the other sides takes on it. So far, nothing. If Obama wins this, McCain will have no one but himself to blame.
The differnce is, most of the shit you call factual McCain and his people know is BS. I hear McCain call him out all the time on the issues, saw a lot of it today. Both sides could call each other out on trivial shit that the far left and right think are important, but in reality is trival, personal BS. Both sides, so far, has not done that. Maybe you should take a page out of McCains book.

[Sleeper 362]

You're completely full of shit and wrong, but I'm pretty much done talking to you because you don't deal in the realm of logic; you just spout your opinions and whatever generalizations you've read in the N&O or watched on the Daily Show. Besides, every time I have addressed specific issues you bring up, you have no answer and just keep spouting the same crap.You just can't hear the truth and being totally unbiased is part of my Forte. Everything you brought up is just a google search away from disproving you but I find your veiws so one sided and narrow minded that you aren't even worth the ffort of google. Honestly if you can't see biggotry as the main reason why so many people have a problem with him you are just ignoring the obvious. So call me what you will your views are shit and are backed with fear and predgiduce. You just hide your true sentiments with false fact like every other piece of shit out there. The numbers I put up are common sense and your numbers come from so called experts. I was done arguing with you when you couldn't comprehend the percentage of wages argument that I put up. Therefor proving your further bias to one side. I was done adressing you when I didn't come back with anything, because no matter what I say you will not listen to, just rebuke. I will address all the flaws of your points tomorrow just to prove you wrong about me.

[apriorius]

The differnce is, most of the shit you call factual McCain and his people know is BS. I hear McCain call him out all the time on the issues, saw a lot of it today. Both sides could call each other out on trivial shit that the far left and right think are important, but in reality is trival, personal BS. Both sides, so far, has not done that. Maybe you should take a page out of McCains book.

Obama's stance on energy policy, taxation, economic policy, willingness to unconditionally negotiate with terrorists, universal healthcare, second amendment flipflopping, etc etc etc are indeed factual and not at all trivial BS. Obama embodies the far left...maybe you should reconsider if you're really as centrist as you believe yourself to be.

[msydnor]

Obama's stance on energy policy, taxation, economic policy, willingness to unconditionally negotiate with terrorists, universal healthcare, second amendment flipflopping, etc etc etc are indeed factual and not at all trivial BS. Obama embodies the far left...maybe you should reconsider if you're really as centrist as you believe yourself to be.

These are all valid topic of debate and I have been hearing McCain argue these points regularly. Nothing wrong with that, that's how it should be. I'm sure I watch more news than most people so maybe you just missed it.

[apriorius]

You just hide your true sentiments with false fact like every other piece of shit out there.
...
I will address all the flaws of your points tomorrow just to prove you wrong about me.


You wanna call me a piece of shit, don't bother. I'm not ashamed of my sentiments pal; they're based on hard work and I've never once asked for shit from anyone. You on the other hand...well, just run along and wait in line for your handout like all the other losers who need to vote themselves a piece of another man's pie.

Talk about the pot and the fucking kettle :rolleye:

[msydnor]

Dude, you act like you are the only fucker thats worked hard for shit. I'd be willing to bet I can beat you out on that comparison. Especially in the period I grew up in, and nobody ever gave me shit.

[apriorius]

These are all valid topic of debate and I have been hearing McCain argue these points regularly. Nothing wrong with that, that how it should be. I'm sure I watch more news than most people so maybe you just missed it.

I don't watch TV so I miss most of the mainstream media garbage. Most news comes from the radio; if I hear something interesting I do further research online when I get home.

[apriorius]

Dude, you act like you are the only fucker thats worked hard for shit. I'd be willing to bet I can beat you out on that comparison. Especially in the period I grew up in, and nobody ever gave me shit.

Nope. And I bet sleeper has worked hard too. Difference is I believe in myself and my ability to take care of myself, and don't need/want the government there to tell me how to live my life in exchange for artificial security. I don't want the government to take shit from other people more successful than me and give it to me. I don't feel the fact that many other people are less successful than I am gives them a claim on the products of my work and ability.

Sleeper has made it very clear that he's all about "equality" and is fine with government redistribution of wealth. Put it another way - if everyone shared his views, no one would produce as there would be no incintive. Fortunately everyone doesn't, but the types of people who Sleeper votes into office try their damndest to further his views of equality. Which, QED, makes him a fucking leech, a parasite, and a drag on society.

[The Funkmeister]

:lol: It's funny how these dumb ads pop up.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/FunkyuNova66/66%20Steering%20wheel/McCain_Lieberman.jpg

[Sleeper 362]

Nope. And I bet sleeper has worked hard too. Difference is I believe in myself and my ability to take care of myself, and don't need/want the government there to tell me how to live my life in exchange for artificial security. I don't want the government to take shit from other people more successful than me and give it to me. I don't feel the fact that many other people are less successful than I am gives them a claim on the products of my work and ability.

Sleeper has made it very clear that he's all about "equality" and is fine with government redistribution of wealth. Put it another way - if everyone shared his views, no one would produce as there would be no incintive. Fortunately everyone doesn't, but the types of people who Sleeper votes into office try their damndest to further his views of equality. Which, QED, makes him a fucking leech, a parasite, and a drag on society.


You just don't get it. No one is taking any money and giving it to anyone else. Get that through your skull. They are just not giving any tax breaks to the people who don't need them. I don't even care if they leave my taxes where they are at or increase them a little. Just don't give the upper class breaks while this country is burdening the middle class. I just don't have a blind eye towards the fact that the rich have enough money and resources to figure out ways of not paying their fair share of the tax burden. We are falling apart in this country and Bush is giving the upperclass tax breaks? Why? What makes them so special that they get a break and the people who need it the most cannot? Obviously the money they make isn't coming back to us. The upperclass have all the pats on the back they need for doing well in this country, it is in their bank accounts. It is obvious that the upperclass for the most part could care less about you and everyone else. While we sit here and suffer the upper class are making money hand over fist on sold property, sold items, and failed investments. They have drained the normal people of this country and are making money off of our failures. They for the most part are totally dependant on us for their income. It is the middle class that buys most of the shit up in this country. Bottom dollar economics have ruined capitalism and the financial infrastructure of this nation. Most people are getting a two percent raise this year meanwhile their bosses are getting a middleclass years worth of salary in bonus checks. It is happening to all of us. All of us. We still have our dumb ass President on TV telling people that there is no recession and that we are fine. Are you fucking kidding me? I be GDd if I am going to vote for some one that shares a smidgen of Bush's policy or Ideals. I would rather sell all my shit for $15 before I would vote for someone with any portion of Bush's thinking.

I am not for the redistribution of wealth though, maybe that fact got lost in the arguing. All I am saying is if they want to take back the tax breaks that the rich are receiving right now, so what, I promise you that their greed will keep them moving forward and making more money. Shit you might see more innovation because they will want to make up for that so called big lump of taxes they are loosing. In all honesty they are already treating us like the bottom of the dirt can, so maybe they will have to actually take the hit instead of taking it out on our salaries like they usually do. My problem with all of this is that you and others like you act like if the rich actually lose these breaks that the world is going to stop turning and they are going to stop earning. Again I promise you their greed will keep them in it. Of course when you talk to them, they all will tell you, I pay all of my taxes, but come on you know they have the money to hire experts and lawyers and accountants to get them out of paying their pull share. Ever sit in a town/city council meeting? I would discuss you to see the absorbanent amounts of money the cities and counties give to big business just to consider putting their business in your town. I watched Dell get an extra couple hundred thousand on top of the first few million they had already recieved, just to get them to build their building here and pay people $10 an hour. My Tax beleif is that all people need to pay a fixed rate of taxes, no matter what the income level is, no loopholes, no help, no breaks for Children, nothing. This is what you pay and that is how its going to be. Whne their are tax increases or reductions it should go all the way across the board not just target a few groups here and their. Problem with that is the dirty CEOs of companies have been noted for getting $1000 a year salaries, but they get 15 million in benefits. It is those people that need to be slapped and thrown in Jail or drug under a bus for a while, but what they do is perfectly legal so we can't do shit to them.

My real issue with all of this is that again, I think a lot of people have a problem voting for a black man and yall are reaching for anything outside of his color to disqualify him in your minds. It may not even be anyone on this website that feels that way(which there are plenty they seem to congregate in the anti Obama arguments) but the fact of the matter, a majority of his opponents have no other reason than his color to not vote for him. You can ignore the obvious all you want, but that is the truth. NO ONE has ever come under the same amount of unbased attacks as he has NO ONE.

[Sleeper 362]

You wanna call me a piece of shit, don't bother. I'm not ashamed of my sentiments pal; they're based on hard work and I've never once asked for shit from anyone. You on the other hand...well, just run along and wait in line for your handout like all the other losers who need to vote themselves a piece of another man's pie.

Talk about the pot and the fucking kettle :rolleye:
My probelm is that I rate a handout right now and I refuse to take it based on pride. I don't air my dirty laundry so most of yall don't know my situation. The reason why I am in the spot I am in is I did work harder than you could imagine for five years of my life. It is constantly rated as one of the hardest, most dangerous, most labor intensive jobs, in existance. Shit they even had a spot on dirty jobs about my old Job. Go hang paper billboards for a week and I promise you will quit within a week. I used go to work at 4am everyday to beat the cars in parking lots. Tote 150# ladders at least ten times a day, lift 75# ladders on every sign at least ten times a day, carry a 50# bucket up on every sign at least ten times a day, drive upwards of 250 miles a day to get from sign to sign. Oh and when you have to scrape a sign sometimes that left over paper would be in excess of 200#s and you have to bring it back to the van that sometimes was right underneath sometimes it was a mile away because it was too muddy to drive to the sign. Let alone all this work is done anywhere from 15 to 150 feet in the air. Those signs sway too, so it is nothing like being on a roof. I hated doing it but like everything I do, I tried to be the best at it and I was. I got into that because my Job as an Aviation mechanic got dissolved as a direct result of Sept 11th. I would still be hanging those signs today if I had not severely injured my back while toting one of those 150# Ladders (32ft fiberglass extension with hooks and various safety equipment) An injury that big business refused to recognize as happening on the job even though I had a witness (trainee) there. So don't come at me about not earning money or expecting a handout. I didn't wanna risk my life for a dollar but for me that was a better alternative than getting unemployment, even though the gov. did give special treatment to laid off aviation workers I still didn't take it. Before I fixed airplanes I was a US Marine so get the fuck off of my shit. I just think its time for those who have been making it off of the blood sweat and tears of the middle class to step up and stop cheating and pay their fair share.

I might be a kettle but your not even a cup.

[RealDeal]

You just don't get it. No one is taking any money and giving it to anyone else. Get that through your skull...

Just don't give the upper class breaks while this country is burdening the middle class.

I just don't have a blind eye towards the fact that the rich have enough money and resources to figure out ways of not paying their fair share of the tax burden.

:blah: and you have no answer to my previous post. This is getting predictable.

[RealDeal]

Memory refresher: Why should a can of beans from the same store cost one guy $10,000, another guy $5, another guy nothing, and another guy get paid $10 to take the can of beans?

[RealDeal]

Oh, and where are my 2 video games, comrade? I just want my "fair share" of video games.

[apriorius]

They are just not giving any tax breaks to the people who don't need them.
...
Just don't give the upper class breaks while this country is burdening the middle class.
...
What makes them so special that they get a break and the people who need it the most cannot?

Jesus dude, I'll explain this one more time. It's really really obvious, so if you *still* don't get it, it's intentional and means you have other motives. However, since you claim not to be for the redistribution of wealth, I'll assume you aren't.

Who are you or anybody to determine who *needs* a tax break? Tell the recent law school grad who makes $90K a year but has 100K in student debt and lives in NYC where a shithole apartment costs $4K a month that he's rich and doesn't *need* a tax break. I think he'll disagree.

What makes the upperclass so special is that they are the ones who *create* wealth and drive our economy, as opposed to the other 95% who simply work for a paycheck. Tax them too much and they stop producing and then we're all fucked.

Your entire argument is based on class envy and works everyone down to the lowest common denominator. You think you're going through rough times, but I guarantee you there's someone without internet access, poor as dirt, who looks at you and says "damn, that fucker has everything and I have nothing but this 50 year old rented singlewide and no air conditioning. He should pay his share". See how that works? You pull your daggers out for the upper class, and the poor pull theirs our for you. In the end, when everyone lives in a 50 year old singlewide with no AC, finally your plan comes to fruition and we're all "equal".

Regarding your claim that I have a secret hidden bias against voting for a black man, all I can say is quit projecting. You're overcompensating. You know nothing about me. Claiming that I'm trying to dig up dirt on Obama because he's black is not only an invalid argument, it's an attempt to browbeat me into false submission by making me afraid of being labeled a racist. This is one of Obama's core stratigies, but it only works if it's true and they can make the victim feel guilt. I don't because race is not my motive, so nice try. The only person who has brought race up is Obama himself, using the same lame and transparent tactic you just tried.

[apriorius]

RealDeal - You're probably right to give up on this guy - I dunno why I still try. The arguments have been laid out, but since there's no way to attack a position that is logically sound, he has to fall back on personal attacks. I'm with you now dude - if he doesn't see it, it's because he doesn't want to.

[Sleeper 362]

My probelm is that I rate a handout right now and I refuse to take it based on pride. I don't air my dirty laundry so most of yall don't know my situation. The reason why I am in the spot I am in is I did work harder than you could imagine for five years of my life. It is constantly rated as one of the hardest, most dangerous, most labor intensive jobs, in existance. Shit they even had a spot on dirty jobs about my old Job. Go hang paper billboards for a week and I promise you will quit within a week. I used go to work at 4am everyday to beat the cars in parking lots. Tote 150# ladders at least ten times a day, lift 75# ladders on every sign at least ten times a day, carry a 50# bucket up on every sign at least ten times a day, drive upwards of 250 miles a day to get from sign to sign. Oh and when you have to scrape a sign sometimes that left over paper would be in excess of 200#s and you have to bring it back to the van that sometimes was right underneath sometimes it was a mile away because it was too muddy to drive to the sign. Let alone all this work is done anywhere from 15 to 150 feet in the air. Those signs sway too, so it is nothing like being on a roof. I hated doing it but like everything I do, I tried to be the best at it and I was. I got into that because my Job as an Aviation mechanic got dissolved as a direct result of Sept 11th. I would still be hanging those signs today if I had not severely injured my back while toting one of those 150# Ladders (32ft fiberglass extension with hooks and various safety equipment) An injury that big business refused to recognize as happening on the job even though I had a witness (trainee) there. So don't come at me about not earning money or expecting a handout. I didn't wanna risk my life for a dollar but for me that was a better alternative than getting unemployment, even though the gov. did give special treatment to laid off aviation workers I still didn't take it. Before I fixed airplanes I was a US Marine so get the fuck off of my shit. I just think its time for those who have been making it off of the blood sweat and tears of the middle class to step up and stop cheating and pay their fair share.

I might be a kettle but your not even a cup.

EDIT:Oh and this also explains some of my attitude toward big business too. Its almost been a year and I still haven't been OKd to work. But that greedy ass business still doesn't seem to think that they are responsible for anything. I made them 15 Million dollars including overhead costs on my work alone and they don't even see fit to even recognize my injury? They even fired me after my FMLA time ran out. SO yeah fuck big business. I even caught them shorting my paychecks a few times. Bottom dollar economics and greed, its what drives most big business today. You can work hard and be dependable and make yourself invaluable, but if you find a way to say a couple dollars you will go farther. SO I say let them feel the squeez too.

[Sleeper 362]

I could break it down even simpler. If you really do believe in socialism, step up to the plate and prove it.

You like online gaming. I'm not into online gaming at all. Say you have 4 games and I have none. Give me two of them - that's "fair." Let me know of a time when we can meet so I can get my two games. I'm not kidding.

Feel that inner drawback? That inner disgust? What did you feel? "He doesn't have a right to my games, what's he thinking? I paid for these games, why do I have to give them to him?"

EXACTLYWhat games do you want? Gotta PS3? I will loan them to you seriously anyone who knows me will tell you that I will give anything to anyone that I have no use for. At least until you can afford to buy them on your own. The flawed thinking in yours and appropriuos argument is that if you tax the rich they will stop working. Working is how they got their in the first place and I doubt they will stop if for no other reason but to keep their life styles where they are. You act like the economy will shut down if they get taxed. No I will just take their spot in whatever they do with less greed in my intentions and a smile on my face. Competition will keep them going.

To that dude living in a double wide can go hang billboards for five years of his life and if he is smart with money he can have exactly what I have.

[apriorius]

EDIT:Oh and this also explains some of my attitude toward big business too blah blah blah

OK'd to work? What do you need, a golden sticker? Just go out and WORK. Use your brain instead of your back.

Sorry dude, but this whole story can be summed up: When the going gets tough, the tough start wanting to drag the rest of us down. Right now youre a victim of self-defeat; I truly believe that a simple attitude change would improve your life 100 fold.

Today is a day of your life you'll never get back. Whatever you do should reflect the price you are paying. Go do something great! you have it in you my friend. I'm not being a smartass - I've never met you but I have unlimited optimism and belief in human capabilities.

Oh, and you're far from the only person to have stood on those yellow footprints. Some of us just took more away from the experience.

[msydnor]

Who are you or anybody to determine who *needs* a tax break? Tell the recent law school grad who makes $90K a year but has 100K in student debt and lives in NYC where a shithole apartment costs $4K a month that he's rich and doesn't *need* a tax break. I think he'll disagree.

What makes the upperclass so special is that they are the ones who *create* wealth and drive our economy, as opposed to the other 95% who simply work for a paycheck. Tax them too much and they stop producing and then we're all fucked.



$90K is rich? damn, I guess I should STFU, I'm loaded.

[apriorius]

What games do you want? Gotta PS3? I will loan them to you seriously anyone who knows me will tell you that I will give anything to anyone that I have no use for. At least until you can afford to buy them on your own. The flawed thinking in yours and appropriuos argument is that if you tax the rich they will stop working. Working is how they got their in the first place and I doubt they will stop if for no other reason but to keep their life styles where they are. You act like the economy will shut down if they get taxed. No I will just take their spot in whatever they do with less greed in my intentions and a smile on my face. Competition will keep them going.

To that dude living in a double wide can go hang billboards for five years of his life and if he is smart with money he can have exactly what I have.

Lol, so I guess the government is borrowing money from people, and they have no use for it. Speaking of flawed thinking, way to compare apples and prunes.

That guy in the singlewide wants your PS3. Wait, you can afford a PS3 but aren't working? How does that work? Oh, I think I know...

Less greed in your intentions and a smile on your face huh? I take back my prior post. FOAD buddy - you're no use to anyone.

[apriorius]

$90K is rich? damn, I guess I should STFU, I'm loaded.

It is to most people.

[msydnor]

It is to most people.

Damn, I'm fucked, Obamas going to take all my money and give it to the guy in the trailer....sorry, couldn't help it. Gotta keep some humor in these threads. :lmao:

[apriorius]

Damn, I'm fucked, Obamas going to take all my money and give it to the guy in the trailer....

And he's gonna use it to buy a PS3...that's probably why he lives in a trailor...he makes poor life decisions. Everyone knows the Xbox is better :D

[RealDeal]

What games do you want? Gotta PS3? I will loan them to you seriously anyone who knows me will tell you that I will give anything to anyone that I have no use for. At least until you can afford to buy them on your own.


I don't have a PS3. I want half of your games, which games is up to someone else's disgression (since 1 amount of games divided by 2 people = 1/2). The big red letters above show that you don't understand what socialism is or isn't. You're not loaning the games, you're giving them to me permanently, and the entire point is that I can't afford them on my own - that's why you have to give them to me.

[RealDeal]

Explain this to me: why should you have to pay $5 for a can of beans and the guy in the trailer gets it for $0.05? Is that equality?

[Sleeper 362]

Lol, so I guess the government is borrowing money from people, and they have no use for it. Speaking of flawed thinking, way to compare apples and prunes.

That guy in the singlewide wants your PS3. Wait, you can afford a PS3 but aren't working? How does that work? Oh, I think I know...

Less greed in your intentions and a smile on your face huh? I take back my prior post. FOAD buddy - you're no use to anyone.I was still working when I had the PS3. I even have a 42" LCD. Unlike most people I paid things with cash. And if it matters to you I am not allowed to sit for more than 20 minutes, stand for more than 20 minutes lift more than ten pounds walk for 20 minutes or bend or stoop so that leaves me with OH yeah nothingnot even office work. I am currently in school so I will never have to do another manual labor job again. Hopefully the degenerative Disk disease that my two ruptured disks has caused will not be permanent. Trust me I have benefited from the fruits of my Labor and I am lucky to have been able to save enough in my 401K and my savings that money isn't that big a deal. Self defeatist? The fact I have taken not one red penny from anyone except for what I have earned myself and I am still able to survive a year attests more to my smart financial moves and my foresight to prepare for the future. I am not defeated never will I be. But winning for me doesn't nesseccarily mean making a million. Winning for me means that I am comfortable with what I have and I am happy and content. So as far as I am concerned I am still a winner. I went without while I was working for a LOOOONG time in order to get into this position, and Luckily I did. I was saving up for other things but luckily I had this to help me through now. When you and your wife combined make X amount but you live on a budget for half of that you can get really far in this world, or when you get set back you will be able to survive. So I am all for not giving anyone anything. I just think to pull our selves out of the financial dept our dumbass president has got us into with doing dumb shit. We cannpot keep looking to the middle class for more and more taxes. Its time that the people who have gained their disposible income from the merits that this country has provided them need to step up and help a little too. Because I am sorry if you haven't heard the middle class's disposible income is about nill now.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

You know, I was typing a really really long response to the can of beans question. I still think it's flawed... true to a point, but still flawed. Really complicated problems have really complicated answers. I just lack the expressive capability to sum up.

Would you mind putting that link up aging showing how FairTax can cut taxing without cutting spending first and not put us into a bigger debt hole than we already are?

[msydnor]

Explain this to me: why should you have to pay $5 for a can of beans and the guy in the trailer gets it for $0.05? Is that equality?

Honestly I think your example is way over simplified and distored.

[HellTeeOne]

I know at least 2 of the folks arguing in this thread are supporters of 2A.

Obama's views on 2A are widely known, they are not a matter of debate.
My question is: How many of yall are cool with him, backed by a potential solidly Democratic Congress, getting his way and passing a sweeping gun ban or two?

This is a yes or no question, because when Obama says he is pro-2A, he's simply lying.

D.

[The Funkmeister]

I know at least 2 of the folks arguing in this thread are supporters of 2A.

Obama's views on 2A are widely known, they are not a matter of debate.
My question is: How many of yall are cool with him, backed by a potential solidly Democratic Congress, getting his way and passing a sweeping gun ban or two?

This is a yes or no question, because when Obama says he is pro-2A, he's simply lying.

D.D. You can't ask a simple question like that? There has to be clouds and delusions thrown in this discussion.

[RealDeal]

You know, I was typing a really really long response to the can of beans question. I still think it's flawed... true to a point, but still flawed. Really complicated problems have really complicated answers. I just lack the expressive capability to sum up.

Well, point out the flaw, and we can talk about it. It wasn't meant to be a "perfect example" but if there's a major flaw, let's hear it. The point I was "trying" to make is that regardless of what you make, you're essentially getting the same service out of the government of this country in general. If I pay more taxes, I don't get more service, and if I pay less taxes, I don't get less service (appreciably). Taxes paid isn't directly proportional (or even close) to service received by the government is the intended point, and another step toward socialism is in no way a step toward "fairness." And why are we taxing income in the first place? It has nothing to do with anyone's burden on the country.

Which is why I fully support any tax system based on use, because it simply makes sense. If you use it, and it must be maintained by the government, you pay for the fraction that you use. Basically, model it on the FREE MARKET (self-balancing, maximum efficiency, incentive for hard work and progress) instead of SOCIALISM (incentive to leech off of others, be lazy, social breakdown and destruction).

Human nature is to be lazy. Why work for something when you can get it for free? Take socialism to its perfection, and everybody gets the same thing, whether they work a lot, a little, or none, so why work? That's a society that pretty much shuts down completely and does nothing.

Those are my points directly.

[apriorius]

Would you mind putting that link up aging showing how FairTax can cut taxing without cutting spending first and not put us into a bigger debt hole than we already are?


Here's the short answer:
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers#6

Here's the long one:
http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/Tax%20Notes%20article%20on%20FT%20rate.pdf
EDIT: Switched from the old one to this one because it gives a more complete answer.

As a freebie, here's a nice gem from a recent fairtax email I received:
"Congress and the White House borrow(ed) $165 billion from other nations to finance taxpayer rebate checks to stimulate the American economy and ignore the wasted $265 billion annual cost of citizens and businesses preparing income tax returns."

[apriorius]

Honestly I think your example is way over simplified and distored.

His example is spot on regarding how socialism works and how many people want to government to operate. Damn near every proponent of such a system (like sleeper) is afraid to call it what it is, and relies on layers upon layers of distortion and outright lies to hide the true nature.

Since you watch so much news you're probably just not used to seeing a duck called a duck in so many words :D

[boosted89]

Back on topic:

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/843/poster91293927tb9.jpg

[black_z]

:lol:

[msydnor]

His example is spot on regarding how socialism works and how many people want to government to operate. Damn near every proponent of such a system (like sleeper) is afraid to call it what it is, and relies on layers upon layers of distortion and outright lies to hide the true nature.

Since you watch so much news you're probably just not used to seeing a duck called a duck in so many words :D

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, qwack qwack muther fucker:)

However, I still say his analogy is not spot on and very over simplified. I do agree that our nation is headed towards socialism and don’t seem to realize it. . I heard some people talking about having the government run the oil industry the other day (socialism) Funny thing , I'm working on my final thesis for American Foreign Policy class, and I'm using a "more" rational view of this trend of socialism. I agree whole heartily that we are become more and more socialized. I don’t agree with your sky is falling objections to taxation theories (and please spare me the details, we aint gonna agree so save the typing) . When I read what sleeper has written I don’t see him as a proponent of this either. From what I’ve seen he hates welfare bitchs, I think he called them, he hates people milking the system, he hates illegal’s getting free healthcare, etc etc etc. The same shit you hate, the same socialist type programs you hate.
Now a workman’s comp claim to me, is not a handout as you implied to sleeper. I believe that is his current situation. My wife’s firm does workman’s comp claims and the insurance companies that cover that are notorious for trying their damn best to not fess up a cent, be it a legit claim or not. Sounds like that’s what he is dealing with and it can be very frustrating.

[Hitch]

I know how much everyone likes videos... Can someone please tell me why we should vote for Obama again??? I'm sure that someone will say it's edited... Ummm nope... Is John Madden his public speaking coach?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S47sO1TCVmE

[RealDeal]

When I read what sleeper has written I don’t see him as a proponent of this either.

I'd just like for him to explain why some need to pay more taxes than others? Why doesn't the dirt poor have the same accusations to make against him? What extra benefit do the ones who pay more taxes get from the government? How is a higher percentage of a higher income amount less of a "fair share?"

Just stuff like that.

And for the record, I'm middle class and don't know where he's getting this "middle class victim" attitude.

[Sleeper 362]

I know at least 2 of the folks arguing in this thread are supporters of 2A.

Obama's views on 2A are widely known, they are not a matter of debate.
My question is: How many of yall are cool with him, backed by a potential solidly Democratic Congress, getting his way and passing a sweeping gun ban or two?

This is a yes or no question, because when Obama says he is pro-2A, he's simply lying.

D.
Why do you think I made some of my purchases lately. I will PM you with my thoughts on this and this has nothing to do with money. Just a little complex thought that can be a whole different subject.

[HellTeeOne]

This country has been leaning more and more towards a damn socialist welfare state ever since FDR's administration. Expansion of Federal powers has also been shockingly dramatic as a form of means as well. The end they are working to is to assimilate enough power so as to be unchallengeable when they prepare to force more socialism down our throats. Every little law they pass that chips away at one's individual power or rights; or demands minor assaults on the bank accounts or dignity of this country's most productive individuals (often in the name of the "common good"), is another step towards the goal of the socialist paradise these people hold so dear.
I have little time for those who either refuse to accept it, don't bother to understand it, can't wait for the day it happens, or are just too flat-out stupid to grasp it.
It goes against every basis this country was founded upon, and it is a PC cancer that is poisioning the framework of America and destroying the moral fabric and ethics of its people. This former lion of a people is having it's feed bowl picked clean by a bunch of poodles and sparrows, and it disgusts the shit out of me.
Yea, this country has gotten a whole lot more socialized in the past seven decades. And for the most part, it's been expensive, cumbersome, even damaging, and it hasn't done us a damn bit of good. That's why I pretty much refuse to accept it.
And it's not a partisan issue either.

D.

[HellTeeOne]

Why do you think I made some of my purchases lately. I will PM you with my thoughts on this and this has nothing to do with money. Just a little complex thought that can be a whole different subject.

You shouldn't have to make such purchases. For the rest of everyone, he's talking about buying certain kinds of guns before they're outlawed by rogue politicians or administrations. Such shouldn't be neccesary because anyone who thinks of challenging 2A is violating the supreme law of the land and therefore should not be holding public office of any sort.

And since there seems to be an ongoing discussion on race in this thread, did anyone know that many of our nation's first gun-control laws were aimed squarely at black people?

D.

[msydnor]

I'd just like for him to explain why some need to pay more taxes than others? Why doesn't the dirt poor have the same accusations to make against him? What extra benefit do the ones who pay more taxes get from the government? How is a higher percentage of a higher income amount less of a "fair share?"

Just stuff like that.

And for the record, I'm middle class and don't know where he's getting this "middle class victim" attitude.

Some pay more than other already. That's the way the system is set up. Always have been. Depending on the administration, who pays more (percentage wise) changes, been that way for years. That's why I don't understand much of this aurgument. I'm sure I paid more than someone is the $40K bracket last year, what percentage more I cant say. I don't claim to be an expert on this subject.

[msydnor]

This country has been leaning more and more towards a damn socialist welfare state ever since FDR's administration. Expansion of Federal powers has also been shockingly dramatic as a form of means as well. The end they are working to is to assimilate enough power so as to be unchallengeable when they prepare to force more socialism down our throats. Every little law they pass that chips away at one's individual power or rights; or demands minor assaults on the bank accounts or dignity of this country's most productive individuals (often in the name of the "common good"), is another step towards the goal of the socialist paradise these people hold so dear.
I have little time for those who either refuse to accept it, don't bother to understand it, can't wait for the day it happens, or are just too flat-out stupid to grasp it.
It goes against every basis this country was founded upon, and it is a PC cancer that is poisioning the framework of America and destroying the moral fabric and ethics of its people. This former lion of a people is having it's feed bowl picked clean by a bunch of poodles and sparrows, and it disgusts the shit out of me.
Yea, this country has gotten a whole lot more socialized in the past seven decades. And for the most part, it's been expensive, cumbersome, even damaging, and it hasn't done us a damn bit of good. That's why I pretty much refuse to accept it.
And it's not a partisan issue either.

D.

I agree.

[Blowbyu]

I didnt read much of this but sleeper to make it a little easier for you to understand, go to a store and pick up sim city 2 and build you a city, cut taxes on the poor and middle class and raise them on the wealthy and see what your city and population look like. You wont be pleased. Now raise the taxes on the poor and middle class but not to high and not to low the sweet spot and cut the taxes on the wealthy. Your city is cleaner and alot more people.

It is what it is and you need to realize that, 1% of america is considered to be the wealthy, and I guess the other 99% fall somewhere in the whatever class people have come up with since they have to throw everything into a class and divide people.

Watch CNBC they bring a show on about it once a week I think it is.

[RealDeal]

Some pay more than other already. That's the way the system is set up. Always have been. Depending on the administration, who pays more (percentage wise) changes, been that way for years. That's why I don't understand much of this aurgument. I'm sure I paid more than someone is the $40K bracket last year, what percentage more I cant say. I don't claim to be an expert on this subject.

Oh, I know that's the way the system is set up, has been and is today. I'm saying it was wrong then, wrong until now, wrong now, and some people are trying to push it even further into the wrong today (socialists). The argument is to salvage what we've got now if not to replace the system with one based on use, rather than to support the spread of socialism (Obama).

[The Funkmeister]

I didnt read much of this but sleeper to make it a little easier for you to understand, go to a store and pick up sim city 2 and build you a city, cut taxes on the poor and middle class and raise them on the wealthy and see what your city and population look like. You wont be pleased. Now raise the taxes on the poor and middle class but not to high and not to low the sweet spot and cut the taxes on the wealthy. Your city is cleaner and alot more people.

It is what it is and you need to realize that, 1% of america is considered to be the wealthy, and I guess the other 99% fall somewhere in the whatever class people have come up with since they have to throw everything into a class and divide people.

Watch CNBC they bring a show on about it once a week I think it is.

Thank you.

[msydnor]

Oh, I know that's the way the system is set up, has been and is today. I'm saying it was wrong then, wrong until now, wrong now, and some people are trying to push it even further into the wrong today (socialists). The argument is to salvage what we've got now if not to replace the system with one based on use, rather than to support the spread of socialism (Obama).

So...who is promoting this???? other than Ron Paul? The only augument I see on capitol hill his sho will pay more percentage wise, nothing more. No change in the current system. Maybe we need Pauls in the hot seat, running mate Ross Perot.

[msydnor]

So what do you guys think about the Freddie Mac Fanny Mae bail outs, thats our money the government is spending, money they don't have. Ron Paul says it's BS. I think Freddy Mac hid all their money in Bernie Macs account.

[Sleeper 362]

I didnt read much of this but sleeper to make it a little easier for you to understand, go to a store and pick up sim city 2 and build you a city, cut taxes on the poor and middle class and raise them on the wealthy and see what your city and population look like. You wont be pleased. Now raise the taxes on the poor and middle class but not to high and not to low the sweet spot and cut the taxes on the wealthy. Your city is cleaner and alot more people.

It is what it is and you need to realize that, 1% of america is considered to be the wealthy, and I guess the other 99% fall somewhere in the whatever class people have come up with since they have to throw everything into a class and divide people.

Watch CNBC they bring a show on about it once a week I think it is.I don't have that game it doesn't have a nuke button.

I could go into tax loopholes but I won't here. There are enough available in the higher tax brackets that they can actually end up with a lower percentage of income earned going to taxes. This is not the time or nor do I have time to sit here and explain all this shit in detail. Plus unless we were in person I don't think I would have your attention for long enough.

Let me explain what I am doing with my spare time. I am going to Wake Forest next year to get my MBA. Paying for it with my own money since its been a while since I've been out no more MGIB. To get to this point I have had A LOT of frickin economics classes, accounting classes and just plain business shit. I don't shoot from my hip, I just feel it would take too long to explain my beleifs and the knowledge that I have. So I have to be abrupt on here. I have heard a lot of these arguments before and I have heard their flaws and merits explained by a lot of people a lot more educated on these exact matters than I am educated on them. My beleifs are what I beleive based on education not information. I could give you stats all day that would fuck you up but I won't because I know most stats are flawed by the purpose or its surveyor. I could give economic outlooks and projections for this and for that with this changed and that changed but the internet is not the time or place for that either.


All I am saying is just leave the man alone, these debates are usually one sided, filled with flaws and gaping holes, and are created from outside information, by people with fear and malicious intent. Using these stupid E Mails and PSAs and such is nothing but promoting ignorance and for the people who are defnding this garbage it makes you look ignorant too. Barrack Obama is not fucking Robin Hood. He is one man against all of congress. When was the last time me and some of the other non McCain supporters have started talking about McCain and his flaws? I never have. BJ even started a thread about how great a speaker Barrack is and no one could say he was a great speaker, yall started it into one of these socialist things AGAIN. Yall wanna talk economics, I could melt your head in person with facts and function and burn your ears off all night, I actually love the shit, even quote individual acts for you if you like. I just aint going to do it on here.

[Sleeper 362]

Here is an old post I made in another thread

Well I am in school today and I am buying my books, $500 worth. Well I get into the store after waiting in line forever and I notice something I notice all these fucking babies mamma's getting fucking laptops like they are packs of Big Red, and everysingle one of them when its time to pay breaks out there financial aid sheets and boom its free laptop time for Sheniqua and Crystal(not limmited to one race). Meanwhile I had to drop a fucking class because I couldn't afford the tuition and the book that it needed.

WHAT IN THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY WHERE A WORKING MAN CAN'T AFFORD TO TAKE A CLASS AND THESE FUCKING HIGH PAID WHORES IE BABIES MAMMAS AND GHETTO CUNTS CAN GET SO MUCH MONEY FOR SCHOOL THAT THEY HAVE ENOUGH MONEY LEFT OVER AFTER BUYING BOOKS AND CLASSES THAT THEY CAN BUY A FUCKING LAPTOP? I wouldn't mind so much if I knew my tax money didn't fund the free for all that these fucking sluts are getting for opening their legs and bearing bastards, but I know it has. I am legitimately wrote out of work for lord knows how long and because I worked for a shitty company and this governments state of fuckeduppedness I get to watch these whores waste my fucking money right in front of my eyes. The shit just breaks my heart sometimes.
/Rant

Sounds really socialist to you doesn't it

[The Funkmeister]

I liked that thread sleeper. Do you think Obama is going to take those laptops from Sheniqua and Crystal?

[danno]

So what do you guys think about the Freddie Mac Fanny Mae bail outs, thats our money the government is spending, money they don't have. Ron Paul says it's BS. I think Freddy Mac hid all their money in Bernie Macs account.

Our money? When you buy something from WalMart, do you bitch about how the Waltons spend it? Once you pay your taxes it ain't your money anymore, it belongs to Ceasar. Think of it as paying for goods and services (highways, school, defense, etc).

[msydnor]

I liked that thread sleeper. Do you think Obama is going to take those laptops from Sheniqua and Crystal?

Do you think McCain will, Bush didn't. That's what I keep saying, year we are headed in the wrong direction, who going to do something about it.

[msydnor]

Our money? When you buy something from WalMart, do you bitch about how the Waltons spend it? Once you pay your taxes it ain't your money anymore, it belongs to Ceasar. Think of it as paying for goods and services (highways, school, defense, etc).

Every time I pulled over a fucker when I was in the Airforce they always liked to remind me that they pay my salary. I guess it never dawned on them I pay taxes too, so I guess I was paying myself.

[The Funkmeister]

Do you think McCain will, Bush didn't. That's what I keep saying, year we are headed in the wrong direction, who going to do something about it.
Very true Mike but somebody needs to do it. I just think with Obama it will only get worse. That's all....maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Obama will put a stop to all this nonsense.

[RealDeal]

Do you think McCain will, Bush didn't. That's what I keep saying, year we are headed in the wrong direction, who going to do something about it.

Exactly. I'm not here to give any praise to Bush or McCain about it, that's for sure, but they're MUCH lesser evils than Obama, and in the real world we (unfortunately) have a choice between two. It's also unfortunate that neither one are decent candidates.

I'll be biting a screwdriver when I vote for McCain.

[msydnor]

Very true Mike but somebody needs to do it. I just think with Obama it will only get worse. That's all....maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Obama will put a stop to all this nonsense.

I don't think either McCain or Obama will.

[Sleeper 362]

So here are few of the threads and posts in those threads that have dealt with Obama in the past:


Flip...Flop....Flip...Flop

That POS will get the vote I'm afraid. Look at the coverage he gets over McCain on the news outlets. If Obama has a wet fart, they cover it. McCain could master cold fusion tomorrow and you'd never see mention of it on the "news".



(http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67864&highlight=Obama)political BS (http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67864&highlight=Obama)

think obama needs to leave this country and go live with the Muslims. I mean damn, you can't hold your hand over your heart and you don't believe in GOD, you want to take my guns away, you want our children to be able to have an abortions with out telling us!!!

(http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67864&highlight=Obama)


Obama (Speaking Debate)

Fuck Hussein Obama. Nothing but a piece of shit leftist surrounded by an empty shell who went to a black power isolationist church for 20 years and is friends with an admitted terrorist. .

Don't even need to find a post from this one


(http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66731&highlight=Obama)Obama to Join White Supremacist Church (http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66731&highlight=Obama)
(http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66731&highlight=Obama)


Obama

According to The Bookof Revelations the anti-christ is:

The anti-christ will be a man, in his 40s, of MUSLIM descent, who will deceive the nations with persuasive language, and have a MASSIVE Christ-like appeal....the prophecy says that people will flock to him and he will promise false hope and world peace, and when he is in power, will destroy everything.

Is it OBAMA??

I STRONGLY URGE each one of you to repost this as many times as you can! Each opportunity that you have to send it to a friend or media outlet...do it!
I refuse to take a chance on this unknown candidate who came out of nowhere.
http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/report.php?p=863938)



I could go all day with this ignorance that has been spread about Barrack Obama on this web site. NO OTHER candidate for the presidency has come under this much flack on this or any other web site, news service or anything of the sort. It is trully sad and if you don't see this shit for bigotry you are a fucking blind man.

[Sleeper 362]

I liked that thread sleeper. Do you think Obama is going to take those laptops from Sheniqua and Crystal?Honestly don't be surprised if he does. Beleive it or not from everything I have read prior to the campaign he has a lot of conservative core beleifs.

[apriorius]

There are enough available in the higher tax brackets that they can actually end up with a lower percentage of income earned going to taxes.

This is as it should be. Rich people pay taxes on capital, you pay taxes on labor. Tax capital too much and it doesn't come out and play, leaving you jobless. Pretty basic concept for you to have failed to grasp given the classes you're taking.

Boo Hoo you don't have a laptop. The kids buying theirs like candy are likely financing it on loans they will have to pay back. I'm sure you'd be happey for the gov to bust in my door and take the spare one in my shop to give to you. Fuck off - I earned it. Go earn yours and quit being so envious.

BTW - career advice - your MBA will be worth more if you actually have a management position going into the program. WF will be happy to take your money, but make sure you get the value out of it you think you will.

[shane bigler]

To get to this point I have had A LOT of frickin economics classes,
I've just kind of been sitting back and reading on this. I won't challenge your education but I find it hard to believe that after you came out of all these classes you seem to have a hard time grasping some fundamental concepts. Unless there is some weird stuff being taught at your school I would figure one would understand the tax structure a little better. But, even economist disagree on things. It all comes down to normative vs. positive thinking. Maybe you know something I don't but I can't support the redistribution of wealth. I agree with helping people who are trying their hardest to survive. But that's about it. I just see our founding fathers, whom I believe were right about pretty much everything, are rolling in their graves right now.

And I do agree with you on the misinformation about Obama. Ignorance pisses me off too. As much ignorance there is against him I'm sure there is equally for him too. I'm sure many people aren't even aware of the innocent slide toward socialism we are taking. It's everywhere! It makes my ears bleed when I hear people thinking that the free market is something bad. Why? Because it's not compassionate? And I love how pro-government people try to paint socialism as being some sort of kind and helpful friend that's going to make everything OK. Sure, people love security and knowing they are going to be alright. But it's manipulation imo. Someone made the quote "When socialism comes to America it will be wrapped in the American flag bearing gifts for all" or something like that. We are buying it hook, line, and sinker and I can't believe it.

[LT1 in a 95 9c1]

Someone made the quote "When socialism comes to America it will be wrapped in the American flag bearing gifts for all"


Actually, it's fascism and bearing a cross, not gifts. ;)

[msydnor]

Look up the definition of communism and tell me what you think. It sounds a lot like what people "think" they want in this country

[apriorius]

Look up the definition of communism and tell me what you think. It sounds a lot like what people "think" they want in this country

I agree, and it sucks. I like this country. I'll move if I have to since I can work about anywhere and 75% of my clientele is international, but if the USA falls it will set the entire world back.

[apriorius]

I could go all day with this ignorance that has been spread about Barrack Obama on this web site. NO OTHER candidate for the presidency has come under this much flack on this or any other web site, news service or anything of the sort. It is trully sad and if you don't see this shit for bigotry you are a fucking blind man.


You dumbass. Two of those are factual, one is satirical, one is an empty quote. So you have a 33% success rate with your "evidence" re: Obama getting shit from the "media". BTW, this is a forum which is not a statistically valid sample, so even your premise is chock full o' FAIL.

You think Obama has it rough? Not to bring up the question of his efficacy, but Bush has been hammered by the media exponentially harder than Obama. Shit, every mass media out there is rooting for him and doing their best to cover up his radical leftist nature.

[Sleeper 362]

You dumbass. Two of those are factual, one is satirical, one is an empty quote. So you have a 33% success rate with your "evidence" re: Obama getting shit from the "media". BTW, this is a forum which is not a statistically valid sample, so even your premise is chock full o' FAIL.

You think Obama has it rough? Not to bring up the question of his efficacy, but Bush has been hammered by the media exponentially harder than Obama. Shit, every mass media out there is rooting for him and doing their best to cover up his radical leftist nature.
Bush has fucked up, he deserves that shit. Obama hasn't even had a chance to fuck shit up and yall are perveying some of the dumbest shit I have ever heard. But when Kerry was running for pres all you heard about was how great a leader he is. Why wasn't Kerry called a radical islamist, or John Edwards or Ronald Reagan or George Bush senior? Why are people so interested in his religion? Do you think every senator has held their hand over their heart every time? Shit Ronald's name are composed of six letters of three words, he has more reason to be considered the anti christ than Barrack. Fuck, Hillary got less flack about whitewater or cheating husband than Barrack got about his religion. Why DON"T we talk about McCains adultery or GWs arrest for possesion of cocaine. But I see more fake/slanderous shit (and especially from you aproprious) about Barrack than all of the above mentioned people combined. The media isn't trying to paint him as anything less left or right. Have you maybe considered that the truth you choose to disbeleive is what they are putting out now? Yall ignorant sons of bitches are eating that fake shit up too, because you want to beleive it. If you really think the media is rooting for him you need to learn about the media a little more. The people in charge DO NOT want to see Barrack in power, but that is another topic all together. Everytime I turn on the today show in the morning, Obama is being attacked or defending himself against another attack. I honestly get sick of hearing about him and it kills me more when it is always him on the defensive.
Who says any of that shit I quoted from past threads is true. Because you say it is? It is opinion based and being pushed by fear more than knowledge. I guess everyone who doesn't agree with our beleifs is a terrorist but yall are the same motherfuckers who wave a rebel flag knowing that was the greatest threat to this country ever and you call it heritage. Radical islamists like to base their hatred on heritage too, again that is another topic I can go rounds with.

[apriorius]

Bush has fucked up, he deserves that shit. Obama hasn't even had a chance to fuck shit up and yall are perveying some of the dumbest shit I have ever heard. But when Kerry was running for pres all you heard about was how great a leader he is. Why wasn't Kerry called a radical islamist, or John Edwards or Ronald Reagan or George Bush senior? Why are people so interested in his religion? Do you think every senator has held their hand over their heart every time? Shit Ronald's name are composed of six letters of three words, he has more reason to be considered the anti christ than Barrack. Fuck, Hillary got less flack about whitewater or cheating husband than Barrack got about his religion. Why DON"T we talk about McCains adultery or GWs arrest for possesion of cocaine. But I see more fake/slanderous shit (and especially from you aproprious) about Barrack than all of the above mentioned people combined. The media isn't trying to paint him as anything less left or right. Have you maybe considered that the truth you choose to disbeleive is what they are putting out now? Yall ignorant sons of bitches are eating that fake shit up too, because you want to beleive it. If you really think the media is rooting for him you need to learn about the media a little more. The people in charge DO NOT want to see Barrack in power, but that is another topic all together. Everytime I turn on the today show in the morning, Obama is being attacked or defending himself against another attack. I honestly get sick of hearing about him and it kills me more when it is always him on the defensive.
Who says any of that shit I quoted from past threads is true. Because you say it is? It is opinion based and being pushed by fear more than knowledge. I guess everyone who doesn't agree with our beleifs is a terrorist but yall are the same motherfuckers who wave a rebel flag knowing that was the greatest threat to this country ever and you call it heritage. Radical islamists like to base their hatred on heritage too, again that is another topic I can go rounds with.

Dude, you're completely delusional.

That aside, I challange you to find one post where I have written fake / libelous shit about Obama.

P.S. Slander is spoken, Libel is written.